Just now, Hawktel said:

If you choose not to use those, are you cheating?

Honestly, I would say no. The information is still open, it's on a card and presumably a list sheet for the tournament. If it follows FFG's previous guidelines your opponent is not allowed to mislead you about what the mechanical substance of his list is. But, in X-Wing you can totally fly the Black One model and not equip the Black One title. Or use a generic gray TIE Defender even if Countess Ryad is shown as in a Red Defender. That can be confusing, but it's entirely a human confusion, not a rule confusion. Nobody's gonna get kicked out for it because they're not trying to get a leg-up on you. The new X-Wing mini in partisan colors will have articulated foils and probably an upgrade card to match, so people are going to want to use it even though Luke Skywalker and Wedge Antilles probably never flew in a partisan X-Wing.

A DLT trooper retains his ability to fire an E-11 (this is how exhaustible weapon guys aren't complete dead weight) is using them to fire cheating because he no longer has that rifle on his model?

Like I said, I don't think it's wrong to suggest or even encourage people to get into magnetizing, or to try and slot in the correct weapons just for ease of use, but I don't think it should be a hard and fast requirement. The limiting of it to hardpoint weapons seems very arbitrary and likely to be just as much of a headache with possible future models, and if we take it past just the plastic bit in the kits, I think it gets way too complex to expect for a game designed to be accessible like legion.

The fact that this game has a card system displaying upgrades tells me this isn't WYSIWYG. People paid money for their miniatures, if they want to display them a certain way, then by all means, let them do that. This is a multiplayer game, and people have different opinions and reasons for enjoyment in this game.

I always go over my list with my opponent before the game so he knows what I'm running, and they usually do the same in return.

Certain vehicles look much better kitted out certain ways, and if someone wants to kit their model that way, let them. You need to take it on yourself to ask your opponent questions that may effect certain outcomes (ex. what weapon does that vehicle have).

13 minutes ago, Hawktel said:

You use a lot of false equivalency. Can you come with a coherent argument?

Sorry, I must be too ignorant to see where my false equivalency is. Are referring to my comparison I made to Armada? If so, then perhaps you missed this part:

2 hours ago, ShadowKite said:

Now I'm not saying that because Armada is this way, Legion will be this way - this is simply to illustrate that in my own experience using upgrade cards works just fine. They're all on the table, just like the models.

Legion is a new game , and seems designed to attract both new people to the hobby in addition to veteran wargamers. It isn't 40K or Warmachine, or any other miniatures game, so I wouldn't expect to hold to all the conventions of those other games.

Hopefully this summary of my argument against WYSIWYG is coherent enough for your standards:

1) A lower barrier to entry will encourage more people to participate in Organized Play.

2) Each unit expansion already comes with the necessary cards to represent different weapon load-outs.

3) Requiring people to also modify their models every time they want to use a different weapon load-out raises the barrier to entry.

4) Therefore, mandating strict WYSIWYG for weapon upgrades raises the barrier to entry and will discourage some people from participating in Organized Play.

And finally, I will once again stress my major point:

Legion is a new game, so I wouldn't expect it to hold to all the conventions of other games.

8 minutes ago, ShadowKite said:

Sorry, I must be too ignorant to see where my false equivalency is. Are referring to my comparison I made to Armada? If so, then perhaps you missed this part:

Hopefully this summary of my argument against WYSIWYG is coherent enough for your standards:

1) A lower barrier to entry will encourage more people to participate in Organized Play.

2) Each unit expansion already comes with the necessary cards to represent different weapon load-outs.

3) Requiring people to also modify their models every time they want to use a different weapon load-out raises the barrier to entry.

4) Therefore, mandating strict WYSIWYG for weapon upgrades raises the barrier to entry and will discourage some people from participating in Organized Play.

And finally, I will once again stress my major point:

Legion is a new game, so I wouldn't expect it to hold to all the conventions of other games.

Legion is a new game. But, it is clearly moving into familiar territory. So its easy to expect it to hold to the norms already established by other games in that area.

But you don't even have to leave FFG for a clear indication. As I put earlier in the thread...

From Armada Tournament Regulations page 4 right column first bullet under Component Modifications:

They cannot modify a ship model in any way that would create confusion about which ship the model represents.

Seems a mild extrapolation that if you choose not to utilizes the options FFG provided to you to avoid confusion, chances are your not playing in their event.

Some of this is irrelevant to some people. They are going to play somewhere with a few friends and they can call a beer stein a AT-ST and go on have fun.

I attend lots of organized events. Its a great way to get several games in very quickly. For me all my efforts, models, and play style is going to be in the direction of being set to play in those events. All my practice games are going to be in that direction.

Now the place your likely to have a barrier of entry is when I convince someone who plays in the basement to go, cause they are a lot of fun, and he gets there, and tells his opponent his beer stein is an AT-ST cause you told him its fine. And it was, until he tried to play with the larger world.

22 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Honestly, I would say no. The information is still open, it's on a card and presumably a list sheet for the tournament. If it follows FFG's previous guidelines your opponent is not allowed to mislead you about what the mechanical substance of his list is. But, in X-Wing you can totally fly the Black One model and not equip the Black One title. Or use a generic gray TIE Defender even if Countess Ryad is shown as in a Red Defender. That can be confusing, but it's entirely a human confusion, not a rule confusion. Nobody's gonna get kicked out for it because they're not trying to get a leg-up on you. The new X-Wing mini in partisan colors will have articulated foils and probably an upgrade card to match, so people are going to want to use it even though Luke Skywalker and Wedge Antilles probably never flew in a partisan X-Wing.

A DLT trooper retains his ability to fire an E-11 (this is how exhaustible weapon guys aren't complete dead weight) is using them to fire cheating because he no longer has that rifle on his model?

Like I said, I don't think it's wrong to suggest or even encourage people to get into magnetizing, or to try and slot in the correct weapons just for ease of use, but I don't think it should be a hard and fast requirement. The limiting of it to hardpoint weapons seems very arbitrary and likely to be just as much of a headache with possible future models, and if we take it past just the plastic bit in the kits, I think it gets way too complex to expect for a game designed to be accessible like legion.

Then why do I have to have a ship on my stand when playing Armada? I have the cards. The base is the important part, all measurements are used to and from the base.

Yet from the Tournament regulations page 4 under Player Materials.

Players are responsible for bringing all of the game components they need to play a game of Star Wars: Armada. This includes all ship and squadron models , bases, pegs, ship cards, squadron cards, ship tokens, obstacles, upgrade cards, objective cards, and tokens

So why does it include this about the Ships and Squadrons? They aren't needed to play. All you need is cards and bases to play. Let me know when you figure it out please?

4 minutes ago, Hawktel said:

Then why do I have to have a ship on my stand when playing Armada? I have the cards. The base is the important part, all measurements are used to and from the base.

Yet from the Tournament regulations page 4 under Player Materials.

Players are responsible for bringing all of the game components they need to play a game of Star Wars: Armada. This includes all ship and squadron models , bases, pegs, ship cards, squadron cards, ship tokens, obstacles, upgrade cards, objective cards, and tokens

So why does it include this about the Ships and Squadrons? They aren't needed to play. All you need is cards and bases to play. Let me know when you figure it out please?

You already lost this argument

I think for vehicles the rule is going to be more lax. As long as you aren't trying to be tricky (ie have atrt with flamethrower model but it's using the cannon while the other one has a cannon but is using a flamethrower) no one is going to have an issue. If there does need to be clarification folks will bring along something to state this one has this gun and this one has this.

The Armada rule prevents things like running aftermarket V-wing models as both TIE Advanced and TIE Defender squadrons in the same list - that's deliberately confusing your opponent as to which is which. It does not prevent me from running V-wing models as Advanceds and ARC-170s as Defenders, as long as I am using the appropriate bases and cards, and each squadron type is still distinct from one another.

1 hour ago, GunNut said:

The Armada rule prevents things like running aftermarket V-wing models as both TIE Advanced and TIE Defender squadrons in the same list - that's deliberately confusing your opponent as to which is which. It does not prevent me from running V-wing models as Advanceds and ARC-170s as Defenders, as long as I am using the appropriate bases and cards, and each squadron type is still distinct from one another.

Except in a tournament this is a no go because it must be FFG models. You can remove the ship from the base and you can go back a watch top tournaments played with no ship on the base due to some being too big and opponents ships bumping in close quarters. I also don't think FFG wants to open that can of worms because then my beloved Lambda shuttle would get a rear firing arc, since it is the only ship in X-Wing with actual rear facing guns!!

On 3/28/2018 at 9:33 AM, Darth Lupine said:

I'm putting everything on my ATST. if I'm not equipping a weapon, I'll tell my opponent the weapon is just out of ammo, or power packs. And can't be used this game....but it's there. ?

This 100x over for the ATST.

2 hours ago, draco193 said:

I think for vehicles the rule is going to be more lax. As long as you aren't trying to be tricky (ie have atrt with flamethrower model but it's using the cannon while the other one has a cannon but is using a flamethrower) no one is going to have an issue. If there does need to be clarification folks will bring along something to state this one has this gun and this one has this.

And that's without things like the comms jammers and long ranged comms, which would be a headache to deal with there anyway.

The cards are what you see and what you get. Models only matter for purposes of sight lines and cover.

Also, modification doesn’t mean putting supplied parts on.

3 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

A DLT trooper retains his ability to fire an E-11 (this is how exhaustible weapon guys aren't complete dead weight) is using them to fire cheating because he no longer has that rifle on his model?

In all fairness, both the missile launcher trooper and the heavy blaster trooper have an E-11 rifle in a holster hanging on their belt. It's there on the figure.

8 hours ago, Cusm said:

Except in a tournament this is a no go because it must be FFG models. You can remove the ship from the base and you can go back a watch top tournaments played with no ship on the base due to some being too big and opponents ships bumping in close quarters. I also don't think FFG wants to open that can of worms because then my beloved Lambda shuttle would get a rear firing arc, since it is the only ship in X-Wing with actual rear facing guns!!

I've run aftermarket squads and ships in tournaments as high as the Regional level. I can't comment on the National or Worlds level as I'm just not that good, but there has never been a negative remark or a request for me to remove them, just interest in where I got them.

7 hours ago, GunNut said:

I've run aftermarket squads and ships in tournaments as high as the Regional level. I can't comment on the National or Worlds level as I'm just not that good, but there has never been a negative remark or a request for me to remove them, just interest in where I got them.

After market ships of the same type or running ARC-170 in place of Defenders as described earlier in this thread? My experience is that tournaments are much more relaxed than the forums would have you think, or I have never played in one with PGS types.

7 hours ago, GunNut said:

I've run aftermarket squads and ships in tournaments as high as the Regional level. I can't comment on the National or Worlds level as I'm just not that good, but there has never been a negative remark or a request for me to remove them, just interest in where I got them.

Did you have the original ship models nearby though? That's really my only ask, just to prove you paid for the packs (as this is probably why the rule exists, not to limit confusion). Otherwise, this matches up with my experience almost completely.

42 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

Did you have the original ship models nearby though? That's really my only ask, just to prove you paid for the packs (as this is probably why the rule exists, not to limit confusion). Otherwise, this matches up with my experience almost completely.

I've seen quite a few 3rd party ships n squads. No one has ever asked someone to change back their models. Armada tournaments are relaxed because it was a new crowd. Seems Legion tournaments will not because people are dragging their 40k baggage in.

1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

I've seen quite a few 3rd party ships n squads. No one has ever asked someone to change back their models. Armada tournaments are relaxed because it was a new crowd. Seems Legion tournaments will not because people are dragging their 40k baggage in.

Oh no, not change back - FFG would just want to see that the kit was purchased, and an official model is a great way to do that. Tournament atmospheres are definitely going to play into it as well - at an Armada tournament you can ask for whatever card/ship you want to borrow and there is a good chance someone will let you (or, if it is casual, just proxy cards). In this, I hear about people wanting to disqualify me because I didn't read about magnetizing things before gluing on my mortar for my AT-ST and I wonder if I really want to play tournaments ever.

Just now, Do I need a Username said:

Oh no, not change back - FFG would just want to see that the kit was purchased, and an official model is a great way to do that. Tournament atmospheres are definitely going to play into it as well - at an Armada tournament you can ask for whatever card/ship you want to borrow and there is a good chance someone will let you (or, if it is casual, just proxy cards). In this, I hear about people wanting to disqualify me because I didn't read about magnetizing things before gluing on my mortar for my AT-ST and I wonder if I really want to play tournaments ever.

Technically yes, the OP rules for Armada say you can ask for someone to supply the correct model. But you cannot ask for proof of purchase. Weasel words to allow you to borrow things.

And yea, Legion tournaments will be a toss up. In my area, we are all super relaxed so we don't care about which weapons you have. Cards are what matters for your army.

As it stands, the Legion OP rules have not been released so all of this is speculation mixed with people being dicks forcing different game systems onto Legion.

Just now, Undeadguy said:

Technically yes, the OP rules for Armada say you can ask for someone to supply the correct model. But you cannot ask for proof of purchase. Weasel words to allow you to borrow things.

Sorry I should Have clarified more - I am agreeing with your general point here. the idea is that you need to have some model to show that you have acquired an official product corresponding to that ship - regardless of how you got it.

3 hours ago, Do I need a Username said:

Sorry I should Have clarified more - I am agreeing with your general point here. the idea is that you need to have some model to show that you have acquired an official product corresponding to that ship - regardless of how you got it.

Yeah, one of the things I've already seen locally is someone who bought one of the airspeeders, but was using the model kit snowspeeder version (I think it was a Bandai kit) of it because he liked the look a bit better due to the cockpit that you could look in and see the pilot. Another player is using some third party AT-PT's instead of the AT-RT's while he still owns the official models, he just preferred the other design (And he's looking at trying to go with a Fest theme to his force...)

5 hours ago, Cusm said:

After market ships of the same type or running ARC-170 in place of Defenders as described earlier in this thread? My experience is that tournaments are much more relaxed than the forums would have you think, or I have never played in one with PGS types.

V-wings for Advanceds specifically, as well as various freighters in flotillas and a Lancer as a Kallus Raider.

5 hours ago, Do I need a Username said:

Did you have the original ship models nearby though? That's really my only ask, just to prove you paid for the packs (as this is probably why the rule exists, not to limit confusion). Otherwise, this matches up with my experience almost completely.

No, in most cases I didn't have the correct ship or squad models on hand. I do punch the proof of purchase and keep them in my token box, since it's easier to store than a bunch of plastic I'm not going to be using.

43 minutes ago, GunNut said:

No, in most cases I didn't have the correct ship or squad models on hand. I do punch the proof of purchase and keep them in my token box, since it's easier to store than a bunch of plastic I'm not going to be using.

That's probably fine, and I wouldn't ask. You just need to have something on hand at Nationals/large regionals probably - which you do.