1 hour ago, Indy_com said:

Also, Luke has no pistol on his model but has a pistol as a weapon. Where is the pistol I glue onto him to be able to shoot it?

If this is a WYSIWYG game he should have an additional pistol arm in the box.

No, that's not at all what people mean when they say WYSISYG.

Luke always has a pistol. He has no way to remove it or replace it with another weapon, so the modeling is irrelevant. Nobody will care if you decide to remove it, or cut it off and replace it with some other weapon. The plastic doesn't convey any information about Luke's loadout.

2 hours ago, Hawktel said:

Why are you playing this game? Why are you trying to make it harder for your opponent to play? Why are you stuck on that this game has models that represent things.

Right, because you having to lean forward or to scoot around the table to tell what gun an AT-RT has equipped with your eyes because you don't have a good angle on it - as opposed to just asking "Hey bud what gun is on this one" - is less time or more respectful to your opponent and the game. Or it's more respectful to be mad because a guy thinks his AT-ST looks better with all the guns attached but doesn't want to pay the points in the game to use them all.

I think it's okay if you see somebody who doesn't have 100% fidelity in the modeling and go "Hey friend, it's actually very easy to magnetize that part", but the insistence that the other guy HAS to play a certain way to not actually make your life easier isn't respect, it's elitism. You can't ever know what all upgrades are on a mini just by looking at it, so you'll need to ask or reference the list at times anyway.

4 minutes ago, svelok said:

No, that's not at all what people mean when they say WYSISYG.

Luke always has a pistol. He has no way to remove it or replace it with another weapon, so the modeling is irrelevant. Nobody will care if you decide to remove it, or cut it off and replace it with some other weapon. The plastic doesn't convey any information about Luke's loadout.

If I have an AT-ST with a Mortar attached, and the rules state this means that AT-ST MUST use the mortar weapon upgrade that's WYSIWYG.

It was an example. Luke's card shows he can fire his pistol. In most WYSIWYG games, in order for Luke to use his pistol, he would need to be modelled holding it.

Also, adding to my original post in this one...

If I equip my Fleet Troopers with Impact Grenades, how would I show that on their model?

4 minutes ago, Indy_com said:

If I equip my Fleet Troopers with Impact Grenades, how would I show that on their model?

GG. Game is broke with WYSIWYG.

Best argument for no WYSIWYG.

People need to remember this is a hybrid game or a game going for a hybrid of customers. FFG is trying to dip into wargamers while also attracting their other miniature players. Based on FFG tournament rules I would expect there to be no paint rule (initially at least) and no WYSIWYG. X-WIng, Armada, Imperial Assault, Runewars all have minis and cards for their upgrades and you need to remember what each one is equipped with and there is no visual cues to help out and the thousands of players that play these competitively every year seem to manage with cards.

I do agree it is visually superior and I would prefer it due to my OCD but demanding it of a company that does the exact opposite in 100% of their games is rather silly.

3 minutes ago, Indy_com said:

It was an example. Luke's card shows he can fire his pistol. In most WYSIWYG games, in order for Luke to use his pistol, he would need to be modelled holding it.

3 minutes ago, Indy_com said:

If I equip my Fleet Troopers with Impact Grenades, how would I show that on their model?

You're arguing against something that nobody has claimed or called for.

Luke has no ability to trade out his weapon, so simply having Luke's model means he is as he appears. There is no corresponding plastic to grenades, like there is for the AT-ST and AT-RT guns.

2 hours ago, Hawktel said:

What you do on your own table is fine.

In Organized Play I'd expect it to be WYSIWYG. And I somewhat hope they put in a must be painted rule.

I would temper your expectations for Organized Play.

1) Legion seems to be designed to be very accessible, and relying on upgrade cards rather than WYSIWYG supports that approach. If I want to field an AT-RT three different ways in three different games, what is easiest? Buy and assemble three different AT-RT expansions? Spend more time and money to buy additional parts and figure out how to swap the weapon each game (i.e. magnetize them?) Or simply place a different card on the table each game? The last option is the quickest, simplest, and easiest solution- by far the most accessible for people new to tabletop wargaming.

2) All the upgrade cards are on the table, so you don't have to do anything but look on the table and see what the game is and the game state. This has been the practice in FFG's other games and it has worked just fine for me and others I've played with. In all my games of Armada, nobody has gotten bent out of shape because there's an ISD-II model on the table but its being fielded as an ISD-I, not mention unique squadrons that are nearly indistinguishable without careful scrutiny. If there's ever any doubt I can simply ask my opponent ("Remind me, which one of these is Black Squadron?") Now I'm not saying that because Armada is this way, Legion will be this way- this is simply to illustrate that in my own experience using upgrade cards works just fine. They're all on the table, just like the models.

Legion is a new game, and seems designed to attract both new people to the hobby in addition to veteran wargamers. It isn't 40K or Warmachine, or any other miniatures game, so I wouldn't expect to hold to all the conventions of those other games.

So FFG can just let people run a AT-RT with whatever gun they want in their official tournaments, or require people to show the right weapon. I can only wonder what one is going to sell more product...

Also from Armada I think something that will show up in the Legion rules…

From Armada Tournament Regulations page 4 right column first bullet under Component Modifications:

They cannot modify a ship model in any way that would create confusion about which ship the model represents.

I’m willing to believe that something very close to this will show in the Legion rules when they come out. And If I get to a table and your trying to sell to me that you’re running the wrong weapon I’m going to call a judge and ask that you clear out.

29 minutes ago, Hawktel said:

And If I get to a table and your trying to sell to me that you’re running the wrong weapon I’m going to call a judge and ask that you clear out.

You're gunna have to show me which of your troopers have grenades if you want to use them.

If Luke or Vader's saber is not the correct color, you won't be able to attack with them.

If you have multiple weapons on the AT-ST but not the cards, that's not a legal model.

Also, it's an AT-RT, not an RT-ST.

All my Storm trooper come modeled with the Grenades. Its in the belt pouch right next to the Grapple.

But if they do in the future come out with a Grenade option, I'll get that modeled on them before I play my models with Grenades.

If I lost my DLT Trooper mini and replaced it with a regular trooper but use the DLT upgrade card, would you be ok with that?

<double post>

3 minutes ago, Hawktel said:

All my Storm trooper come modeled with the Grenades. Its in the belt pouch right next to the Grapple.

But if they do in the future come out with a Grenade option, I'll get that modeled on them before I play my models with Grenades.

Too bad they have E-11s in their hands and not grenades.

The game is run on cards, not minis. No reason to be a **** cuz you played 40k hard core.

31 minutes ago, Hawktel said:

So FFG can just let people run a RT-ST with whatever gun they want in their official tournaments, or require people to show the right weapon. I can only wonder what one is going to sell more product...

Sure, let's take that approach.

Relying Strictly on WYSIWYG: a small number of people might buy more than 3 AT-RTs and 2 AT-STs, but the majority will instead spend less money buying magnets off Amazon and other sellers (*not FFG*) so they can modify the models they already have. Fewer people get involved in Organized Play because the barrier to entry is just a little bit higher, stores won't get as good a return from their OP kits and eventually they won't buy as many.

Relying Strictly on Upgrade Cards: with a lower barrier to entry, a lot more people get interested in OP, stores get better returns on OP kits, stores buy more OP kits and promote them more enthusiastically, as more players get involved in OP the player base grows, and thus

more models are sold. Most of the people that were inclined to buy 9 AT-RTs will probably still buy several extras, just so they can try out alternate paint schemes and modify them with stormtroopers or wookies riding them.

38 minutes ago, Hawktel said:

Also from Armada I think something that will show up in the Legion rules…

From Armada Tournament Regulations page 4 right column first bullet under Component Modifications:

They cannot modify a ship model in any way that would create confusion about which ship the model represents.

I’m willing to believe that something very close to this will show in the Legion rules when they come out. And If I get to a table and your trying to sell to me that you’re running the wrong weapon I’m going to call a judge and ask that you clear out.

And yet FFG doesn't sell a single ISD-I model, all you can get is an ISD-II. Perhaps next time I see an ISD-II representing an ISD-I I should call a judge over and ask the player to clear out? Obviously that's not how that rule works. Rather it is keep people from bringing a third-party model (like a Venator) to a tournament and passing it off as a Victory Star Destroyer, or modifying an MC80 so heavily that I can't tell whether it represents the Home One variant or the Liberty variant. I'm sure that there will be a similar rule in Legion, so that I don't bring an AT-RT model to the table and try to tell people that it's really an AT-ST. That doesn't OP events will be strictly WYSIWYG.

Maybe you will get your wish and WYSIWYG will be mandated for official tournaments- I'm just saying that there are reasons not to this, and not to be surprised if FFG does something that you don't expect.

20 hours ago, Wiredin said:

May I has 6 red dice now plz?

There is actually a special forces detachment of storm troopers where the leader uses a lightsaber. I think it's in Star Wars issue 20 something in the new Marvel run on Star Wars.

I don't know if you meant to do that, but there is precedent!

14 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

If Luke or Vader's saber is not the correct color, you won't be able to attack with them.

You know that might actually work! Luke specifically uses Anakin's LS. So if you go green you may get booted from OP!

4 minutes ago, ShadowKite said:

Sure, let's take that approach.

Relying Strictly on WYSIWYG: a small number of people might buy more than 3 AT-RTs and 2 AT-STs, but the majority will instead spend less money buying magnets off Amazon and other sellers (*not FFG*) so they can modify the models they already have. Fewer people get involved in Organized Play because the barrier to entry is just a little bit higher, stores won't get as good a return from their OP kits and eventually they won't buy as many.

Relying Strictly on Upgrade Cards: with a lower barrier to entry, a lot more people get interested in OP, stores get better returns on OP kits, stores buy more OP kits and promote them more enthusiastically, as more players get involved in OP the player base grows, and thus

more models are sold. Most of the people that were inclined to buy 9 AT-RTs will probably still buy several extras, just so they can try out alternate paint schemes and modify them with stormtroopers or wookies riding them.

And yet FFG doesn't sell a single ISD-I model, all you can get is an ISD-II. Perhaps next time I see an ISD-II representing an ISD-I I should call a judge over and ask the player to clear out? Obviously that's not how that rule works. Rather it is keep people from bringing a third-party model (like a Venator) to a tournament and passing it off as a Victory Star Destroyer, or modifying an MC80 so heavily that I can't tell whether it represents the Home One variant or the Liberty variant. I'm sure that there will be a similar rule in Legion, so that I don't bring an AT-RT model to the table and try to tell people that it's really an AT-ST. That doesn't OP events will be strictly WYSIWYG.

Maybe you will get your wish and WYSIWYG will be mandated for official tournaments- I'm just saying that there are reasons not to this, and not to be surprised if FFG does something that you don't expect.

You use a lot of false equivalency. Can you come with a coherent argument?

Here's another thing:

With the exception of the mortar all of the weapon options in the game are push-fit or designed to be push-fit (The AT-RT figures I've encountered just have a hard time getting the join tight enough). With near zero modification you can swap out every weapon in the game barring the mortar so it's not unreasonable to expect WYSIWYG in this game.

I don't think this will be how FFG goes, but it bloody well should be. Welcome to miniature wargaming...

2 minutes ago, GreatMazinkaiser said:

Here's another thing:

With the exception of the mortar all of the weapon options in the game are push-fit or designed to be push-fit (The AT-RT figures I've encountered just have a hard time getting the join tight enough). With near zero modification you can swap out every weapon in the game barring the mortar so it's not unreasonable to expect WYSIWYG in this game.

I don't think this will be how FFG goes, but it bloody well should be. Welcome to miniature wargaming...

I'll ask you this directly.

If I intend to field Fleet Troopers with Grappling Hooks and Impact Grenades, will I have to spend money on non-ffg resources to create "tournament legal" models?

5 minutes ago, Indy_com said:

I'll ask you this directly.

If I intend to field Fleet Troopers with Grappling Hooks and Impact Grenades, will I have to spend money on non-ffg resources to create "tournament legal" models?

What's that got to do with it? The components in the box are for three guns and you get all three of them. Put the correct one on the model when you're using it, it's not hard. They're not a Space Marine Predator tank with a dozens of different sponson and equipment options, some of which come in the box and others that don't.

FFG has already given everything you need to put together the correct model for the job.

1 minute ago, GreatMazinkaiser said:

What's that got to do with it? The components in the box are for three guns and you get all three of them. Put the correct one on the model when you're using it, it's not hard. They're not a Space Marine Predator tank with a dozens of different sponson and equipment options, some of which come in the box and others that don't.

FFG has already given everything you need to put together the correct model for the job.

Well if I don't see grapples and grenades on your minis, how are you using that equipment? We are using the same logic you applied to the weapons on vehicles.

10 minutes ago, Indy_com said:

I'll ask you this directly.

If I intend to field Fleet Troopers with Grappling Hooks and Impact Grenades, will I have to spend money on non-ffg resources to create "tournament legal" models?

Why do you feel those are not already modeled on the figure?

Grenades aren't explicitly modeled anywhere on the Fleet Trooper, and if they were, you'd have to mod them to make them different between impact and concussion - the art shows they don't look identical.

Better example is targeting scopes. Almost every model has an optic modeled on their gun. Do you require every player to play with Targeting Scopes or hack the scope off their models? Or, if that's optional, why is everyone specifically hung up on the weapons?

Even most 40k players don't care if the grenades are on the model or not. It's the primary weapon that matters.

A Space Marine model with a Bolt Gun should not be used even though their list has it as a Plasma Gun. It causes confusion. Same thing if your ATRT has a different weapon glued on compared to the upgrade card.

People are taking the whole WYSIWYG way to the extreme.

3 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Grenades aren't explicitly modeled anywhere on the Fleet Trooper, and if they were, you'd have to mod them to make them different between impact and concussion - the art shows they don't look identical.

Better example is targeting scopes. Almost every model has an optic modeled on their gun. Do you require every player to play with Targeting Scopes or hack the scope off their models? Or, if that's optional, why is everyone specifically hung up on the weapons?

Believe it or not, your actually getting to a good question. As a WYSIWYG player, the question isn't does a fleet troop have grenades, but should I play this model without buying grenades as they have belt pouches, that clearly hold Grenades?

I plan to buy mine Grenades.

But its a bit immaterial to the real discussion. FFG provides a model, a weapon. If you choose not to use those, are you cheating?