1 hour ago, Orcdruid said:

What you described is luke using his charge for the first attack though right? Or am I reading that wrong?

Yeah i was referring to that but not that it matters if he charges or attacks with a normal action

5 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

about the only way for luke vs speeders to get sorta shafted is if he uses his card to attack twice, engages the non-leader model and kills it - no longer base contact since speeders dont pile in for engagements so his second attack got wasted lol.

If a unit enters a melee, which Luke and the bikes can do, and a unit dies, you move minis to maintain melee. So if Luke kills a non commander, he will move into base contact with the commander.

7 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Vehicles cannot enter engagement, so you would not move vehicles into base contact. And if you deal 6 damage, both bikes would die. Seems a little wonky, but those are the rules.

PG 32

Minis that are not in base contact with an enemy mini can still contribute to a melee attack if the unit to which that mini belongs is in a melee.

Whenever there are minis that are not in base contact with an enemy mini but those minis have a melee weapon and the unit to which they belong is in a melee, those minis must be placed in base contact with an enemy mini in the same melee as their unit if possible. This can happen when minis in a melee suffer wounds and are defeated, creating space for other minis that were not previously in base contact to be place in base contact. If both players own minis that are not in base contact with an enemy mini and should be, the player that is currently activating a unit or has most recently activated a unit (even if that unit is not the unit with minis that should be placed in base contact with enemy minis) should move their minis into base contact with enemy minis before the other player does so. If neither play has activated a unit yet this round, the blue player should move their minis first.

Pg 45

Vehicles can be in a melee but cannot be engaged.

So if Luke deals 5 damage against 2 bikes, 1 of the bikes is destroyed and the other suffers 2 damage. If the bike Luke is in contact with is not the leader, it is destroyed. Because a vehicle can be in a melee, I believe Luke would be placed next to the leader bike in base contact.

I don't think the restriction on engagement prevents the vehicles from moving into base contact. So when Luke moves into melee with one speeder the other one should move to the other side of him.

Nevermind on page 32 if an opponents unit does not have a melee weapon the opponent does not move their minis into base contact.

1 minute ago, NukeMaster said:

I don't think the restriction on engagement prevents the vehicles from moving into base contact. So when Luke moves into melee with one speeder the other one should move to the other side of him.

Speeders don't have a melee weapon, so they can't move into base contact.

PG 26

Trooper units can be only engaged with other trooper units. Trooper units cannot be engaged with vehicles, and vehicles cannot be engaged with other vehicles, even if both units are in a melee.

PG 32

If the opponent’s unit does not have a melee weapon, the opponent does not move their minis into base contact with the unit that started the melee.

2 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Speeders don't have a melee weapon, so they can't move into base contact.

PG 26

Trooper units can be only engaged with other trooper units. Trooper units cannot be engaged with vehicles, and vehicles cannot be engaged with other vehicles, even if both units are in a melee.

PG 32

If the opponent’s unit does not have a melee weapon, the opponent does not move their minis into base contact with the unit that started the melee.

Yeah I just looked that up because it didn't seem right but still it is the weapon restriction that prevents the minis from moving into base contact not the engaged restriction. As I read it if we see a 2+ mini vehicle unit with a melee weapon released those minis would move into base contact with an attacking unit just like a trooper unit does.

29 minutes ago, NukeMaster said:

Yeah I just looked that up because it didn't seem right but still it is the weapon restriction that prevents the minis from moving into base contact not the engaged restriction. As I read it if we see a 2+ mini vehicle unit with a melee weapon released those minis would move into base contact with an attacking unit just like a trooper unit does.

Yea so an AT-RT would move back into base contact if it did a melee attack on some Stormtroopers and killed the ones it was in contact with. This is assuming not all minis were in base contact, because the first step is to move all minis into melee.

So speeder bikes can never be forced into melee or base contact. But other units can move into melee with them. Interestingly, since they are Repulsor vehicles, they can't overlap other units except on their compulsory move, which provides 2 ways they cannot enter a melee.

Question on difficult terrain, vehicles and compulsarry movement.

The Rules Reference says a vehicle that starts, moves through/ over or ends its movement on difficult terrain has its movement reduced by 1. But compulsarry move rule says you have to move your max move. So If I have a vehicle that has to do a compulsarry move, that move is reduced by 1 or does it still move its max due to it being a compulsarry move?

Repulsor vehicles can freely move over terrain up to the height of their Speeder X keyword. So speeder bikes essentially ignore terrain up to height 1, and T-47s ignore it up to height 2.

The stormtrooper HH is cumbersome so it cannot move and shoot in the same activation.

But if the unit the HH is attached to moves and goes into standby, can the HH shoot in the coming opponents turn if the opportunity presents itself? (assuming it isnt exhausted)

3 minutes ago, Soulless said:

The stormtrooper HH is cumbersome so it cannot move and shoot in the same activation.

But if the unit the HH is attached to moves and goes into standby, can the HH shoot in the coming opponents turn if the opportunity presents itself?

Yes, with an E-11 rather than the HH-12.

1 minute ago, Indy_com said:

Yes, with an E-11 rather than the HH-12.

Of course I mean with the HH

And can it really shoot with a rifle instead of the HH?

1 minute ago, Soulless said:

Of course I mean with the HH

And can it really shoot with a rifle instead of the HH?

If the HH-12 is exhausted, you cannot use it to attack with standby.

However, all infantry figures in a unit can attack with the listed weapons on the unit card.

As such, the mini for the HH-12 stormtrooper can attack with an E-11, as the weapon is listed on the stormtrooper unit card.

33 minutes ago, Indy_com said:

If the HH-12 is exhausted, you cannot use it to attack with standby.

However, all infantry figures in a unit can attack with the listed weapons on the unit card.

As such, the mini for the HH-12 stormtrooper can attack with an E-11, as the weapon is listed on the stormtrooper unit card.

Alrite but if it isnt exhausted? As my above example, the unit did a move action and then a standby action so the HH isnt exhausted, but due to cumbersome it cant attack during this activation.

I guess my question is how long does a unit activation last?

Just now, Soulless said:

Alrite but if it isnt exhausted? As my above example, the unit did a move action and then a standby action so the HH isnt exhausted, but due to cumbersome it cant attack during this activation.

I guess my question is how long does a unit activation last?

As to that, I'm not sure...

I read that as the figure cannot attack with the HH-12 after moving, rather than not at all.

It only specifies when its activating. When it performs a standby attack, its not activating anymore it just has an event triggering out of normal behavior.

Currently, yes you can fire a cumbersome weapon in standby if you moved that turn. I suspect that'll get changed though since you can get around cumbersome pretty easy with that.

11 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

It only specifies when its activating. When it performs a standby attack, its not activating anymore it just has an event triggering out of normal behavior.

Currently, yes you can fire a cumbersome weapon in standby if you moved that turn. I suspect that'll get changed though since you can get around cumbersome pretty easy with that.

There is a reasonable explanation for using cumbersome weapons in standby.

Currently both cumbersome weapons are explosive projectile weapons.

They aren't firing the weapon with standby, they're lobbing the explosive at the enemy.

Say Luke moves into melee (base to base) combat with a vehicle. Luke does his melee attack. When that vehicle activates it's still in base to base contact. It doesn't have any melee weapsons, so does it just fire its regular weapons? Would it have to move away?

OK I really need someone to explain to me how cover works because the RRG seems to contradict itself. Experienced Armada/X-wing player here just wants clear-cut rules for what is obstructed/in cover and what isn't!

Quote

Page 22: "T he player traces an imaginary line from the center of the base of the attacker’s unit leader to the center of the base of a mini in the defending unit. If the imaginary line crosses either a piece of terrain or another unit’s base, that mini is obscured....

... If at least half of all of the defender’s minis are obscured, that unit has cover."

OK, so far so good, draw a few lines, count the # of obscured minis... but wait!

Quote

Page 8: " As a general rule, terrain that blocks line of sight to half or more of a mini provides cover, while terrain that blocks less than half of a mini does not."

Oh no! Do I actually need to stand behind a portion of terrain, or is standing on top of it enough? What is the sandbags only come up to my mini's knees? I am guessing (for sandbags) the answer here is to define that at the start of the game. Which is fine.

But an interesting edge case that came up recently was two units each standing on the roofs of two adjacent, equal-height buildings. Each had 100% LOS to 100% of the other's figures. But per Page 22, since we were standing ON terrain, the line crossed a piece of terrain. So they were obscured. But according to Page 8, 50% of the mini was not LOS-blocked, so they got no cover.

So which is it, and how do you make sense of this?

4 minutes ago, Rettere said:

But an interesting edge case that came up recently was two units each standing on the roofs of two adjacent, equal-height buildings. Each had 100% LOS to 100% of the other's figures. But per Page 22, since we were standing ON terrain, the line crossed a piece of terrain. So they were obscured. But according to Page 8, 50% of the mini was not LOS-blocked, so they got no cover.

So which is it, and how do you make sense of this?

I'd rule that scenario as a clear shot. Unblocked LOS from the Unit leader's head to the head of the enemy Unit.

25 minutes ago, Indy_com said:

I'd rule that scenario as a clear shot. Unblocked LOS from the Unit leader's head to the head of the enemy Unit.

Yeah this would make sense... but it isn't what the rules say. Am I missing something in the rules or is this in need of a FAQ?

Edit: Specifically, the rules say the mini is obscured if the imaginary line crosses a piece of terrain. And the building I'm standing on the top of is terrain. Therefore I am obscured. (?)

50 minutes ago, Rettere said:

So which is it, and how do you make sense of this?

I think the rules on page 8 is a holdover from a previous cover system as it is directly contradicted by the rules on page 22 where the base itself of a vehicle provides cover regardless of whether or not the vehicle model is blocking LOS to any part of the target model.

1 hour ago, Rettere said:

OK I really need someone to explain to me how cover works because the RRG seems to contradict itself. Experienced Armada/X-wing player here just wants clear-cut rules for what is obstructed/in cover and what isn't!

OK, so far so good, draw a few lines, count the # of obscured minis... but wait!

Oh no! Do I actually need to stand behind a portion of terrain, or is standing on top of it enough? What is the sandbags only come up to my mini's knees? I am guessing (for sandbags) the answer here is to define that at the start of the game. Which is fine.

But an interesting edge case that came up recently was two units each standing on the roofs of two adjacent, equal-height buildings. Each had 100% LOS to 100% of the other's figures. But per Page 22, since we were standing ON terrain, the line crossed a piece of terrain. So they were obscured. But according to Page 8, 50% of the mini was not LOS-blocked, so they got no cover.

So which is it, and how do you make sense of this?

Think of it this way!

A mini that is "obscured" isnt necessarily in cover, it only means there is something interfering with the view from whoever is targeting it. At least 50% of the model needs to be obscured to be considered in cover, anything less then 50% and there is no cover and no penalty for the attacker.

In the case of your rooftop shootout, as you described it the opposing units could see each other completely, nothing obscuring their views. Normally this would mean they are not in cover, even though your imaginary LOS passes over the buildings which are pieces of terrain. An exception to this is how some might want to treat buildings as "area terrain" and simply grant cover to any unit that is completely within (or on top of) a building. It is assumed that there is enough rubble, scatter and debris around for soldiers to take cover behind even if not modelled directly on the terrain.

A good suggestion is to skip completely the part about "imaginary lines passing over terrain" and directly check line of sight from a models point of view, in the end it is all that matters. If your unit want to shoot something, you get your head down and look from behind your model(s) and see how much of your target is visible. If less then half the target is visible it is in cover, otherwise its a clear shot!

Oh, and be generous! If you are uncertain or there is a disagreement about a cover situation, hand it to your opponent or suggest a die roll to decide!

1 hour ago, Hedgehobbit said:

I think the rules on page 8 is a holdover from a previous cover system as it is directly contradicted by the rules on page 22 where the base itself of a vehicle provides cover regardless of whether or not the vehicle model is blocking LOS to any part of the target model.

I can see the reason behind this as vehicles and models are moving about while terrain is static. The base of an ATRT for example is the area it obscures while moving, turning around, kicking up dirt etc.

27 minutes ago, Soulless said:

A good suggestion is to skip completely the part about "imaginary lines passing over terrain" and directly check line of sight from a models point of view, in the end it is all that matters. If your unit want to shoot something, you get your head down and look from behind your model(s) and see how much of your target is visible. If less then half the target is visible it is in cover, otherwise its a clear shot!

The problem with using the "model's eye" viewpoint to determine cover is that units are firing as a group and not model to model. A target model more than 50% obscured from one attacking model might be completely clear to another attacking model. The attacking unit leader is considered to be the center of mass for the firing unit, thus it makes sense to use his base as a rough guideline but not to use his viewpoint entirely to determine the cover status of the entire target unit.

Hence, target models that are not visible at all to the attacking unit leader can still be shot and killed if at least one attacking model can see ANY part of the target model.

1 hour ago, Rettere said:

Am I missing something in the rules or is this in need of a FAQ?

Yes, this is in need of a FAQ and word from Adepticon is that Alex Davy is currently working on that. In the meantime I went with an interpretation that does not conflict with the "rules" (defined as page 8 and page 22 together). The most important step is to determine what terrain gives what cover to whom BEFORE even placing it. Most items will give troopers cover but not vehicles (the RRG mentions this).

So yes, you use true LoS from the vehicle's top to see if something is obstructed for LoS (can I see this defender?)--and THEN you draw the base to base line to see what cover is even being discussed. At that point, you should refer to your pregame assessment when you and your opponent said "this rock is far too small to count as cover for Snowspeeder, but it is still counted as heavy cover for troopers." Then when the troopers shoot back, the rock is in the same position and would count as light cover for the Snowspeeder, except that you determined pregame that Snowspeeders would not get cover from that terrain piece. If you missed that pregame step, you can fall back on the "50% of the model covered" to make the call, but you shouldn't have to rely on that during play.