I encountered this question on the wiki and I'm not sure what advice to give.

Viktor Hel with Stealth Device is attacked by a multi-shot weapon like Twin Laser Turret or Cluster Missiles. The first shot hits Viktor and removes Stealth Device. This means his defense dice rolls were 3 green dice, then 2 green dice.

Viktor's wording is... problematic for this scenario, and I'd like to know how TAs have been interpreting this situation. Or if they've been asked at all! K-Fighters haven't seen a ton of use so maybe it didn't come up much.

Quote

After defending, if you did not roll exactly 2 defense dice, the attacker receives 1 stress token.

"After defending" means we wait until step 8 when both shots are finished to resolve Viktor's ability and decide whether to assign stress, and that brews trouble. Viktor rolled 3 dice, then 2 dice... so what number does his ability use?

1. We could add all his defense dice rolled, in which case the result is 5.
   • This is awesome for Viktor and ugly for TLT, since it means multi-shot weapons will almost always take stress against Viktor (they're only safe if he has reduced agility).
   • The main reason I'm suspicious of this is the recent SLAM ruling, where maneuver speed for cruise missiles etc refers to your dial maneuver and nothing else. But this also feels like a very different question from that one, so it may not be a relevant comparison.
2. We could look at both numbers and say "at any point when he rolled defense dice, did he roll exactly 2 defense dice?". Yes he did, so he does not assign stress.
3. We could look at both numbers and say "at any point when he rolled defense dice, did he ever not roll exactly 2 defense dice?". Yea one of those rolls was 3, so he should assign stress.

I hope this isn't a 10-page discussion of language intricacies; I worry we don't actually have enough info to answer this question since FFG's rules can be kinda... loose. But TAs, if you've encountered this and had to rule, which direction did you go?

46 minutes ago, Wazat said:

I encountered this question on the wiki and I'm not sure what advice to give.

Viktor Hel with Stealth Device is attacked by a multi-shot weapon like Twin Laser Turret or Cluster Missiles. The first shot hits Viktor and removes Stealth Device. This means his defense dice rolls were 3 green dice, then 2 green dice.

Viktor's wording is... problematic for this scenario, and I'd like to know how TAs have been interpreting this situation. Or if they've been asked at all! K-Fighters haven't seen a ton of use so maybe it didn't come up much.

"After defending" means we wait until step 8 when both shots are finished to resolve Viktor's ability and decide whether to assign stress, and that brews trouble. Viktor rolled 3 dice, then 2 dice... so what number does his ability use?

1. We could add all his defense dice rolled, in which case the result is 5.
   • This is awesome for Viktor and ugly for TLT, since it means multi-shot weapons will almost always take stress against Viktor (they're only safe if he has reduced agility).
   • The main reason I'm suspicious of this is the recent SLAM ruling, where maneuver speed for cruise missiles etc refers to your dial maneuver and nothing else. But this also feels like a very different question from that one, so it may not be a relevant comparison.
2. We could look at both numbers and say "at any point when he rolled defense dice, did he roll exactly 2 defense dice?". Yes he did, so he does not assign stress.
3. We could look at both numbers and say "at any point when he rolled defense dice, did he ever not roll exactly 2 defense dice?". Yea one of those rolls was 3, so he should assign stress.

I hope this isn't a 10-page discussion of language intricacies; I worry we don't actually have enough info to answer this question since FFG's rules can be kinda... loose. But TAs, if you've encountered this and had to rule, which direction did you go?

An excellent question. If I had to rule, I'd look at each attack separately but giving the stress in step 8 after both attacks have been completed. The trigger for Hel's ability happens during the first attack but its resolution happens in step 8.

I assume that wouldn't mean Viktor with Stealth Device (without losing it) could give two stress. It triggers twice but each trigger waits to resolve until step 8, and rulings for effects like Tactician have already put a stop to that. Or rather, it doesn't trigger twice, it triggers once but that one trigger references two separate events of defending and considers each.

Hel versus PTAT needs FAQ in general.

It was already asked in this forum, and we could not come to a consensus, they need to answer it in an FAQs, and they did not do it in the last...

As has been said the actual effect of a "perform this attack twice" weapon vs. Viktor Hel has no clear consensus or official ruling. It absolutely needs a FAQ entry (FFG, your ears burning yet???).

But, as far a the effect of a stealth device goes we can say it wont matter because Viktor Hel can only resolve his ability after both attacks have been resolved (in step 8 of the attack timing flowchart). Either way FFG (finally) rules the stealth device will force the stress. If you add up all defense dice rolled while defending you will get 5 which is not exactly 2. If you look to see if you ever rolled not exactly 2 at either point while defending you will have one instance where this case is true which (per Gunner FAQ entry) will force the ability to resolve. Either way you cut it Viktor Hel with Stealth Device will assign 1 stress to the attacker regardless of the weapon being used. His ability forces you to check to see if "you did not roll exactly 2 defense dice" so we can safely discard OP's option 2 as it asks a question that is not being asked by the ability or gamestate and goes against similar rulings (Gunner/Luke).

Hey, if we all keep posting back and forth at an alarming rate and this topic becomes (and stays) "HOT" for an extended period...do you think FFG will take notice and actually FAQ this??? Where you at @theBitterFig? Let's have at it and argue excessively!!!

Viktor Hel: Clear as Mud!

I'm going to go ahead and throw my hat into the ring for your three possible interpretations:

1. Adding all dice together is am odd interpretation, but not an invalid one. We've established that cumulative dice rolls can happen (Lightweight Frame), though his card is the first that could possibly trigger across multiple attacks (as is the case in "Perform This Attack Twice" scenarios).
2. This interpretation is, as @ZealuxMyr stated, not viable. The pilot explicitly checks for a number of defense dice being rolled that is different from "2", and if he had a stealth device, the answer would almost always be yes (there are edge cases where he wouldn't, but we're not talking edge cases here). As soon as he sees one result other than two, the trigger is fulfilled, and his effect can take place at the appropriate time.
3. This version seems to make the most sense. Looking at only one attack at a time, did he ever roll "not-2" defense dice? If so, stress triggers after the second attack.

Regardless, an official FAQ response would be greatly appreciated!

FAQ needed!

3 hours ago, Wazat said:

I encountered this question on the wiki and I'm not sure what advice to give.

Viktor Hel with Stealth Device is attacked by a multi-shot weapon like Twin Laser Turret or Cluster Missiles. The first shot hits Viktor and removes Stealth Device. This means his defense dice rolls were 3 green dice, then 2 green dice.

I'd say the attacker should receive a stress, and greatly prefer the #3 interpretation. I disagree with #1 as the way it ought to be interpreted, but it'd also give the attacker a stress.

I don't think #2 would be the right way to treat the combination of "did not roll exactly 2" and "rolled exactly 2." We say "hit" and "miss" is "hit" although it wouldn't be necessarily wrong if consensus was "hit" and "miss" is "miss." Why should we take the Union instead of the Intersection or vice versa? The largest part of that is the language "did not hit" of Gunner/Luke which implies that any "hit" will prevent the trigger, but a smaller part of it is just that it'd be unfair if you were able to tank one shot on a TLT or Cluster Missile, hit with the other, and follow up with a full primary weapon attack. Likewise, I think it'd just be unfair if Viktor Hel invested in a Stealth Device, only to have it never count, since one attack of a pair rolled against exactly two dice. A Rules-As-Intended argument, I guess, but I think it still lends weight against #2.

1 hour ago, ZealuxMyr said:

Hey, if we all keep posting back and forth at an alarming rate and this topic becomes (and stays) "HOT" for an extended period...do you think FFG will take notice and actually FAQ this??? Where you at @theBitterFig? Let's have at it and argue excessively!!!

Contrary to appearances, I sometimes work during the day. Missed it until now. Anyhow, I think I've just reached a peace with you being so totally wrong about this.

I jest, I jest.

Personally, I'd rather have Pie & Pie is Pie, and not Pie & Pie is Ice Cream. That's interpretation #1 is unbelievably vexing to me. But my interpretation means that 2 + 2 = 2, which I know is going to irk someone else. But still, I think there are enough instances in mathematics where we're willing to say "you can't add these" that I'm far more willing to give up on 2+2.

1 hour ago, emeraldbeacon said:

... though his card is the first that could possibly trigger across multiple attacks (as is the case in "Perform This Attack Twice" scenarios).

The first one anyone cared about, at least. I've spent far too much time thinking about how Reinforced Deflectors should work against Cluster Missiles.

Particularly with the errata'd text: “After defending, if you suffered a combination of 3 or more damage and critical damage during the attack, recover 1 shield (up to your shield value).” The word "the" in "during the attack" rather than being phrased "damage while defending" might be enough to prevent a cumulative damage interpretation (2 damage and 2 damage = 4 damage = shield proc), so it's not quite the same as Viktor Hel, and one shouldn't necessarily set precedent for the other.

Naturally, I'm inclined to only trigger Reinforced Deflectors against a 3-hit attack, and only once against two 3-hit attacks.

Possible Rulings:

1. While not the most wrong, I think this is a valid possible interpretation.
2. This is the one I think is the most wrong answer, RAI. However, I can understand coming to this conclusion.
3. This seems to be the best case to build the argument. It doesn't significantly alter Viktor Hel's viability nor TLT vs Viktor Hel.

Unintended results?:

1. This dampens TLT vs ONLY Viktor Hel, and this nudges up Viktor Hel's utility.
2. This nearly invalidates Viktor Hel vs TLT.
3. This doesn't significantly alter Viktor Hel's viability vs TLT nor TLT vs Viktor Hel. This is the route I would go for a ruling.

The closest analogous situation here (in my opinion) would be the interaction of Maul (and his stress removal) and TLT. So (via OP's option 3) I would look at each attack from the TLT to see if VH's trigger was met, if either of the attacks from TLT caused the ability to trigger, then after the TLT has finished the attacker would receive one stress.

TLT and Clusters should almost always trigger the stress since the two ‘attacks’ of these weapons actually constitute one attack per the timing chart and victor will roll more than two defense dice over the course of the attack (unless he was hit buy a tractor token and rolled one die twice...). However this will only result in one stress given.

finally it’s the TLT nerf we’ve been asking for!

9 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

TLT and Clusters should almost always trigger the stress since the two ‘attacks’ of these weapons actually constitute one attack per the timing chart and victor will roll more than two defense dice over the course of the attack (unless he was hit buy a tractor token and rolled one die twice...). However this will only result in one stress given.

finally it’s the TLT nerf we’ve been asking for!

The thing is, TLT doesn't count as 1 attack for Predator or Accuracy Corrector, why should it do as such for Viktor Hel? I strongly believe that if Viktor Hel rolls 2 dice against each attack, his ability ought not trigger. I find this similar to the way that if both attacks miss, Maul does not trigger and remove stress.

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

The thing is, TLT doesn't count as 1 attack for Predator or Accuracy Corrector, why should it do as such for Viktor Hel? I strongly believe that if Viktor Hel rolls 2 dice against each attack, his ability ought not trigger. I find this similar to the way that if both attacks miss, Maul does not trigger and remove stress.

Because there is only one After Attacking trigger.

Maul only works the way he does because he checks a binary condition - did the attack hit? If both attacks hit, yes. If both attacks missed, no. If one hit and one missed yes. Conversely, Gunner etc, also checks the same binary, but the other way round - did not hit. Both hit, no. One hit, no. No hits, yes.

Hel doesn't check a binary condition. He checks a numerical condition, the calculation for which is not specified. He checks if exactly two dice were rolled. But we don't know whether that's per attack or not, because it's not specified anywhere.

Fundamentally, this is not a question this forum can answer in any meaningful way. The rules are not written one way or the other. We can all give our opinions, but our opinions are irrelevant. FFG's opinion is the only one that matters.

13 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Because there is only one After Attacking trigger.

Maul only works the way he does because he checks a binary condition - did the attack hit? If both attacks hit, yes. If both attacks missed, no. If one hit and one missed yes. Conversely, Gunner etc, also checks the same binary, but the other way round - did not hit. Both hit, no. One hit, no. No hits, yes.

Hel doesn't check a binary condition. He checks a numerical condition, the calculation for which is not specified. He checks if exactly two dice were rolled. But we don't know whether that's per attack or not, because it's not specified anywhere.

Fundamentally, this is not a question this forum can answer in any meaningful way. The rules are not written one way or the other. We can all give our opinions, but our opinions are irrelevant. FFG's opinion is the only one that matters.

My disagreement is that Hel can easily be interpreted as binary true/false statement: "rolled exactly two" and "did not roll exactly two" is a pair of choices which covers all possibilities. "Two and Not Two is Not Two," but "Two and Two is Two". To interpret Viktor Hel as not-being-binary is a a choice. I'd say a choice with about equal weight behind either interpretation.

For the "sum the dice" argument, saying that "TLT is one attack" is inconvenient for a lot of abilities. There's only one target selection step (per R3-A2) and one after attacking step (lots of things), so there's got to be some way to combine the two checks of truth or untruth. But the argument that they ought to be treated as one attack is awkward. For so many things to work, they have to be two attacks which share some steps.

Personally I think the 'rolled exactly two twice' argument is both correct and the one FFG will use. But I recognise that the 'rolled 4' one has foundation.

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Because there is only one After Attacking trigger.

This is the most important part I think.

Vik hel sez: After defending, if you did not roll exactly 2 defense dice, the attacker receives 1 stress token.

‘After defending’ happens in step 8. TLT goes through steps 2-7 twice before getting to 8. Vik rolls defense dice twice before step 8, and will under normal conditions roll something other than a sum of 2 dice. In step 8 the attacking TLT will get stressed. Seems pretty obvious to me what’s supposed to happen.

2 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

This is the most important part I think.

Vik hel sez: After defending, if you did not roll exactly 2 defense dice, the attacker receives 1 stress token.

‘After defending’ happens in step 8. TLT goes through steps 2-7 twice before getting to 8. Vik rolls defense dice twice before step 8, and will under normal conditions roll something other than a sum of 2 dice. In step 8 the attacking TLT will get stressed. Seems pretty obvious to me what’s supposed to happen.

Thing is though, under normal conditions, Viktor Hel will have rolled exactly two dice, twice. It's painfully true that he rolled exactly two dice. He's certainly never rolled in a pool of defense dice in any number other than two. My analogy is that if you have two pies, that doesn't make them ice cream because there are two of them. Combining "True" and "True" into "False" is, to me, a bitter affront to all logic and truth and reason. I recognize that I'm asking you to accept that 2 + 2 does not equal 4, but I think it's a much smaller reach to consider that in mathematics, sometimes it isn't appropriate to add numbers, and I don't consider the text of Viktor Hel as strongly implying we should (such as if it used the word total somewhere). Two kids, one standing on the other's shoulders, don't become tall enough for a carnival ride. They don't get to combine ages when attempting to buy liquor. Sometimes there are numbers we cannot add.

But true should always be true. What can be more obvious than that?

Adding defense dice across rolls is strange, since many other things which happen between 2-7 aren't added (dice rerolled for Lone Wolf). Likewise, "roll 2 defense dice" is something in this game with a concrete meaning; it's something specific we can be instructed to do in this game, such as on Lando crew. And the creation of a pool of dice matters. That's why there are the intricate rulings around Palpatine and Lightweight Frame.

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Adding defense dice across rolls is strange, since many other things which happen between 2-7 aren't added (dice rerolled for Lone Wolf). Likewise, "roll 2 defense dice" is something in this game with a concrete meaning; it's something specific we can be instructed to do in this game, such as on Lando crew. And the creation of a pool of dice matters.

Yes there’s lots of strange things in this game. Just look at the timing chart!

Ok, so treat it like Clusters and Munitions Failsafe: if at least one of the two attacks hits, MF does not trigger since the entire attack didn’t miss.

So TLT fires at Vik with SD, he rolls 3 dice, gets hit, then rolls two dice. Vik rolled ‘not two’ at least once so the attacker gets the stress. With no SD, TLTs will not get stressed since neither attack will result in ‘not two’.

this seems to be the most likely path the FAQ would take if they use the previous MF ruling.

But do I agree? Eh, whatever. There’s this timing chart that should be the end all of any rules argument but it gets side stepped with special rules right and left, not to mention the entire chart exists solely due to very poor rules and card formatting.

In any sane game Clusters and TLTs would benifit From FCS and BT would work with agromechs.

9 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

Yes there’s lots of strange things in this game. Just look at the timing chart!

Ok, so treat it like Clusters and Munitions Failsafe: if at least one of the two attacks hits, MF does not trigger since the entire attack didn’t miss.

So TLT fires at Vik with SD, he rolls 3 dice, gets hit, then rolls two dice. Vik rolled ‘not two’ at least once so the attacker gets the stress. With no SD, TLTs will not get stressed since neither attack will result in ‘not two’.

this seems to be the most likely path the FAQ would take if they use the previous MF ruling.

But do I agree? Eh, whatever. There’s this timing chart that should be the end all of any rules argument but it gets side stepped with special rules right and left, not to mention the entire chart exists solely due to very poor rules and card formatting.

In any sane game Clusters and TLTs would benifit From FCS and BT would work with agromechs.

Personally, I like the timing chart, and feel it cleans up a lot of things.

And treating Viktor Hel like Munitions Failsafe is exactly what I like best. Basically, I want there to be essentially one way to treat "perform this attack twice" with triggers on attacks, and that's to use something like a logic gate, or Boolean choice, or such. If both true, then true. If both false, then false. If one true and one false, that'll depend on the text of the cards. "Roll 3 (stealth device)" and "Roll 2 (SD hit away)" is ultimately "did not roll exactly two" because one roll was 3.

51 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Personally, I like the timing chart, and feel it cleans up a lot of things.

I like the IDEA of the timing chart. I just don’t like what we were given.

Kinda like how SW fans love the idea of Star Wars, but actually hate everything about SW even though hundreds of people worked thousands of hours to bring you quality entertainment.

So, FFG, this timing chart you worked so hard on Just so we gamers can play in an organized and fair manner...yeah, the chart sucks, and you suck. And we hate you. Except for GUNBOAT, that was awesome. But otherwise you suck.