Would making them Scum Only help? Gunboats can survive without them, and Miranda and Rebel Nym have proven to still be great without them.

WHat do you have against Vader and Quickdraw?

Seriously though, they're too powerful. Making them faction limited doesn't change that.

Make the condition only apply if the target has no shields after the attack is complete. Job done. They're now a LOT less strong on the alpha.

yeah I think now imps need all the help they can get, however I do believe they are somewhat out of control

What if, for harpoons, you had to spend a crit (or at least a hit) to assign the condition? This lowers the damage, and makes the condition tempermental.

Harpooned condition should only be allowed on 0 or 1 agility ships. The purpose of these are to damage the high HP tanks a bit more, and any feeder fish that stay close to those tanks, like Lowhhrick, Kanan, etc. So, have harpoons be the missile they are, but the condition can only go on 0 or 1 agility ships. This can push for more 2 agility + ships and make lowhhrick a liability in 3 or 4 ship rebel squads instead of a necessity.

6 hours ago, Npmartian said:

Would making them Scum Only help?

And Flechette Torpedoes Empire Only. Please.

6 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Seriously though, they're too powerful. Making them faction limited doesn't change that.

Yes it does. The problem is that ships like Miranda, Rebel Nym, (sometimes) Vader, Quickdraw, and Gunboats can use Harpoons VERY effectively. For scum, the K-Fighter, Quinn Jast (but... really?), and Scum Nym (who seems to be dying down a little) can use them well, but not RIDICULOUSLY well. It doesn't make those ships broken; instead, it's a contributor to making them good. Besides, it just makes SENSE.

As much as I love my scum ships.... I can’t get behind this.

Ok, so let’s look at Harpoons. It costs as much as Clusters or Cobcussions but keeps the TL. There’s 50 % chance of the condition (applied on a hit) causing one extra damage to the ship. There’s also the Deadman’s switch effect and the splash damage and faceup damage card when hit by an uncanceled crit (which is pretty easy to do). This condition is basically a faceup damage card that doesn’t count as a damage card. The condition being removed on an action is almost the same effect as a jammer token, but not quite.

And there’s Plasma Torps for one point less that throw the same number of dice and remove an extra shield on a hit. And assault missiles cost one more point and include the splash damage on a hit. So on paper Harpoons seem to be balanced with other ordnance because the condition it imparts is....conditional. There’s a chance the defender won’t get hit by a crit or be damaged during the removal action, while other ordnance have auto effects.

So a Missile with a chance to cause extra effects and doesn’t spend its TL is ‘equal’ to a Missile that has a built in Blank to hit mod but spends its TL. They would both do similar damage on average but keeping the TL is a huge advantage on any ships that can take EM or reload. Huge ships would love Harpoons.

So when do you not take Harpoons? When you get hit in the face by your own Harpoon splash. When that extra damage doesn’t happen for you...ever. And that’s probably a lot of players.

10 hours ago, Npmartian said:

Yes it does. The problem is that ships like Miranda, Rebel Nym, (sometimes) Vader, Quickdraw, and Gunboats can use Harpoons VERY effectively. For scum, the K-Fighter, Quinn Jast (but... really?), and Scum Nym (who seems to be dying down a little) can use them well, but not RIDICULOUSLY well. It doesn't make those ships broken; instead, it's a contributor to making them good. Besides, it just makes SENSE.

No, it just means that next time a powerful scum ship with missiles comes out, it instantly becomes broken, which heavily limits the available Scum design space.

And also, Deadeye Harpoon blahblahs, generally, are very strong, especially Scurrgs with Outlaw Techs.

5 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

Ok, so let’s look at Harpoons. It costs as much as Clusters or Cobcussions but keeps the TL. There’s 50 % chance of the condition (applied on a hit) causing one extra damage to the ship. There’s also the Deadman’s switch effect and the splash damage and faceup damage card when hit by an uncanceled crit (which is pretty easy to do). This condition is basically a faceup damage card that doesn’t count as a damage card. The condition being removed on an action is almost the same effect as a jammer token, but not quite.

And there’s Plasma Torps for one point less that throw the same number of dice and remove an extra shield on a hit. And assault missiles cost one more point and include the splash damage on a hit. So on paper Harpoons seem to be balanced with other ordnance because the condition it imparts is....conditional. There’s a chance the defender won’t get hit by a crit or be damaged during the removal action, while other ordnance have auto effects.

So a Missile with a chance to cause extra effects and doesn’t spend its TL is ‘equal’ to a Missile that has a built in Blank to hit mod but spends its TL. They would both do similar damage on average but keeping the TL is a huge advantage on any ships that can take EM or reload. Huge ships would love Harpoons.

So when do you not take Harpoons? When you get hit in the face by your own Harpoon splash. When that extra damage doesn’t happen for you...ever. And that’s probably a lot of players.

It's a 4 dice missile that does 4.5 to 5 damage, reliably (assuming you build your list to deal crits reliably, which every faction has at least one good way to do, Imperials the least effectively), and as a pure bonus, does splash damage. It's far better than any of the things you mention: Assault Missiles and Plasma Torps both spend their locks, so their damage is a LOT lower. ANd it's a point cheaper than Assaults to boot.

It's not just the condition, or just the 4 dice, or just the not-spending-the-lock, or just the extra die from Mira or the crit from Guidance chips, it's all of them.

I'd assert that a missile that was just Attack: Target lock, 4 dice, range 2-3 would be pretty much perfectly balanced at this point for 4 points. That would be broadly equivalent to Concussions, for the same cost. The condition makes harpoons significantly better than that.

15 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

No, it just means that next time a powerful scum ship with missiles comes out, it instantly becomes broken, which heavily limits the available Scum design space.

And also, Deadeye Harpoon blahblahs, generally, are very strong, especially Scurrgs with Outlaw Techs.

It's a 4 dice missile that does 4.5 to 5 damage, reliably (assuming you build your list to deal crits reliably, which every faction has at least one good way to do, Imperials the least effectively), and as a pure bonus, does splash damage. It's far better than any of the things you mention: Assault Missiles and Plasma Torps both spend their locks, so their damage is a LOT lower. ANd it's a point cheaper than Assaults to boot.

It's not just the condition, or just the 4 dice, or just the not-spending-the-lock, or just the extra die from Mira or the crit from Guidance chips, it's all of them.

I'd assert that a missile that was just Attack: Target lock, 4 dice, range 2-3 would be pretty much perfectly balanced at this point for 4 points. That would be broadly equivalent to Concussions, for the same cost. The condition makes harpoons significantly better than that.

Yeah I think you missed my point: that FFG had ‘reasons’ to believe Harpoons were balanced for their price when in practice they have been problematic.

Possible example of FFG thought process: Plasmas and Harpoons are both expected to roll Hit-Hit(or crit)-focus-blank. With Chimps that blank is now a hit/crit for both. Then we see that Harpoons get to reroll that focus while Plasmas would have to rely on some form of action economy not inherent in the weapon itself. Since Plasmas cost one point less this is seen as ‘balanced’. Assuming both hit (with Harpoons having the greater chance to do so) Plasmas will do one more damage to any ship with at least one shield token left, while Harpoons stricken a ship with the equivalent of a faceup damage card that doesn’t count towards the hull of that ship.

Now the condition: In a vacuum it seems that once hit the ship can risk a 50% chance to take a hit by expending an action or risk suffering a real faceup card and splash damage the next time an uncanceled crit sails in. I don’t know if FFG considered the possibility of being hit by crits following the initial attack but they probably considered how another ship’s attack is needed at the same or lower PS than the first but also requiring guaranteed crits. Chimps on 3 att ships and ordnance, calculation, marksmanship, winged gundark, etc. can all produce crits fairly reliably. This requires an investment in points that FFG seems to believe would be rare in actual gameplay. They would be wrong.

also comparison to concusion: Spending they TL to shoot seems like a huge disadvantage but it gives you the ability to turn a blank to a hit. The expected average rolls of the other three dice are hit/hit(crit)/focus. With Chimps the focus becomes hit(crit) and this compares quite well with Harpoons....without considering the condition. FFG either considers the condition to be worth less than a point due to the extra steps to guarantee extra/splash damage or they think concussion missiles are a lost cause and have given up on them all together.

as I see it Harpoons should be around 4.5 pts, with 5 points being just slightly over costed but bareable. At 4 it’s over the edge and pushes out a lot of otherwise decent cards and has an impact on the Meta far beyond its Missile slot and 4 point cost.

Assumign that was the process, their thinking was clearly flawed.

14 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

It's a 4 dice missile that does 4.5 to 5 damage, reliably (assuming you build your list to deal crits reliably, which every faction has at least one good way to do, Imperials the least effectively)

Reads Emperor Palpatine.

Reads Advanced Targeting Computer.

Scratches head.

54 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Reads Emperor Palpatine.

Reads Advanced Targeting Computer.

Scratches head.

Reads Miranda, reads R2 D2. Completely understands the decision to apply additional Hull damage.

Yeah the splash damage is maybe a bit much but it’s kind of a double edged sword. It can hurt your squad as well.

Harpoons are pretty much designed for competitive play, which can make them pretty unfun to play against in a casual setting. But why complain about Harpoons (so much) and continue to be all tralala about TLT and PWT.

I'm not arguing for or against harpoons.

I'm just not sure how imperials have the "least effective" methods of delivering crits, when the Emperor works 100% of the time you choose to use it and ATC works 100% of the time you have the target locked.

harpoons are overrated. good, but overrated XD.

Just make them also require a modification slot. Now no advanced slam, no EI, no chips, no LRS.

Same ships can take them, but not as effective.