I'd like to see what people are running that consistently beats uthuk, or at least contends for a 6-5 either way. More insight into what works against them is always helpful.

I run waiqar and Latari, I've tried MSU and big blocks and a lot in between, though I tend to not run large siege units and prefer msu to big block. I'm curious if I'm just building the wrong armies.

This is what I tried last time, it wasn't the worst but still an 8-3

198/200

Leonx Riders [24] 1x3
Metered March [2]
Column Tactics [4]
Total Unit Cost: 30

Leonx Riders [24] 1x3
Metered March [2]
Column Tactics [4]
Total Unit Cost: 30

Aymhelin Scions [14] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 14

Aymhelin Scions [14] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 14

Aliana of Summersong [33] 1x1
Reaping Blade [4]
Ambush Predator [3]
Total Unit Cost: 40

Deepwood Archers [30] 2x2
Maegan Cyndewin [10]
Close Quarters Targeting [3]
Total Unit Cost: 43

Deepwood Archers [17] 2x1
Fire Rune [7]
Close Quarters Targeting [3]
Total Unit Cost: 27

This is what I plan on trying next time. Hoping the extra mobility means I can avoid melee for longer.

199/200

Maegan Cyndewin [36] 1x1
Martial Magic [3]
Total Unit Cost: 39

Leonx Riders [24] 1x3
Metered March [2]
Column Tactics [4]
Total Unit Cost: 30

Leonx Riders [24] 1x3
Metered March [2]
Column Tactics [4]
Total Unit Cost: 30

Deepwood Archers [17] 2x1
Wind Rune [6]
Total Unit Cost: 23

Deepwood Archers [17] 2x1
Wind Rune [6]
Total Unit Cost: 23

Aliana of Summersong [33] 1x1
Reaping Blade [4]
Ambush Predator [3]
Total Unit Cost: 40

Aymhelin Scions [14] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 14

Ive also tried full size cats and archers but find it's not as good as the smaller units as once your in melee with uthuk they melt units pretty fast, no matter what size.

Looking at attack profiles (dice) the Uthuk don't hit much harder than the other armies. My feeling is that the hit modifier is what is making the real difference. The Berserkers and Spined Threshers can modify attacks with hits at initiative 4, which is faster than any other non-hero unit released so far. The exception is a Spearmen build with Lance Corporal. When the Darnati Warriors release, the Latari will also have that ability. The reason I bring all this up is because you mentioned that your units melt once engaged, so I think it's worth exploring why that's happening. Is the hit modifier making all the difference?

Yeah that hit on modifier on spined Thresher hurts extra because they have that automatic brutal built in. Add in the panic reroll, they are just a tough unit, pricey, but worth every point. It will be interesting what their unique upgrades brings.

On 3/21/2018 at 1:18 AM, Jukey said:

but find it's not as good as the smaller units

I agree that chip damage definately adds up on them. Thier highest armor, for now, is 2, so that three threat is not as helpful compared to an additional attack.

I still have trouble flanking Uthick even with wind rune. A set of Berserkers equipped with warsprinter and aggressive gives them reform and charge at init 3.

I posted my list I used that did well against Uthick here with the theme of lots of attacks: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/271421-all-the-fire-runes-latari-anti-uthick-list/

I do want more cats but I struggle using the 3x1 effectively. I'll be curious to see how you fare.

2 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

Looking at attack profiles (dice) the Uthuk don't hit much harder than the other armies. My feeling is that the hit modifier is what is making the real difference. The Berserkers and Spined Thteshers can modify attacks with hits at initiative 4, which is faster than any other non-hero unit released so far. The exceptiin is a Spearmen build with Lance Corporal. When the Darnati Warriors release, the Latari will also have that ability. The reason I bring all this up is because you mentioned that your units melt once engaged, so I think it's worth exploring why that's happening. Is the hit modifier making all the difference?

We did some math for the latest Initiative One episode, and I think it indicates what the real difference is. The numbers are just base unit efficiency, using expected average damage results, with a damage modifier on the dial assumed if the unit has one. Again, this is just for the unit itself with no upgrades.

The biggest outliers are the 1- and 2-tray Thresher units. Expected average damage for the 1 tray is 5, and for the 2 tray is 7.5. Comparatively, Scions and Lancers sit at 2.75 and 5.5 respectively, and 3 and 4.5 for Rune Golems. So why that damage boost for the Threshers? Brutal 1. The only other units with the keyword are heroes and the Rune Golems. In the case of the Rune Golems, the hit modifier is definitely a big advantage to the Threshers.

If you compare them to the Scions and Lancers, taking away Brutal from the Threshers actually puts them below on average (at 2.5 and 5).

The other damage boost for the Threshers comes from their melee ability. If they have a single die reroll, the 1 tray average damage increases to 6.12, and the 2 tray to 9.18.

So the hit modifier separates them from the Rune Golems, but not the Scions and Lancers. Can you argue that you are more likely to use it on the Threshers than the other units? Sure. I would expect that Scions use the defense modifier a fair bit, but the Lancers probably use the hit modifier more often than the panic.

The real key to them is the efficiency of the base 1- and 2-tray units, and the math seems to support that the combination of Brutal 1 and a reroll is the biggest factor from the other siege units that see a lot of play on their own (not as an upgrade).

Wow, thanks for all the input!

I'll admit, I really hadn't considered how much that hit modifier and panic/surge modifier are impacting the matches, but I think that really is the key to handling them.

I'm thinking maybe bringing more stun mechanics might be the answer. FL scion can throw stun, I think dream weaver also does. Church and I found that blight is pretty nasty too for uthuk, but my last waiqar build didn't capitalize on it.

@Xquer my reasoning for 3x1 cats is with metered march and CT they hit well most of the time and always dictate when they engage (speed 4 march and reform with the ability to stop short just outside range 1, guarentees 2 speed charge at 3). They die quickly, but if you charge, cat bounce, charge, they do their damage. I'm also doubting my wind rune archers now that you mention the reform/move at 3 on zerkers.

Also, going back to the hit modifier, I'm thinking tempered steel may be better for archers. I've never used it much because it requires rallying, and that's the Daqans game, but seeing how often it's included makes me think I should revisit it.

Thanks for all the lists so far, I need to try a few of those waiqar builds @Drakoniss . I look forward to seeing more demonslayers.

1 hour ago, FranquesEnbiens said:

So the hit modifier separates them from the Rune Golems, but not the Scions and Lancers. Can you argue that you are more likely to use it on the Threshers than the other units?

I don't think it's a frequency thing, I think the issue is timing. Initiative 4 is on the lower end for melee attacks, but several units can attack at 4 and some even at 3. We already saw in the early days that attacking early is often better than attacking late with a hit modifier. However, if you can attack before the enemy you are engaged with AND still get a hit modifier, that is even better. I am proposing that this has a significant impact on why Berserkers are perceived as hitting harder than expected despite having the same attack profile as Spearmen.

4 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

I don't think it's a frequency thing, I think the issue is timing. Initiative 4 is on the lower end for melee attacks, but several units can attack at 4 and some even at 3. We already saw in the early days that attacking early is often better than attacking late with a hit modifier. However, if you can attack before the enemy you are engaged with AND still get a hit modifier, that is even better. I am proposing that this has a significant impact on why Berserkers are perceived as hitting harder than expected despite having the same attack profile as Spearmen.

The other thing about the Berserkers is that they are cheap, so their damage return for your investment is greater than the Spearmen - once you add the melee ability in for Lethal 2, their damage per point cost is still better than Spearmen with CWM and FLRG with Brutal 2. They also, at least theoretically, take fewer turns off from attacking (with Aggressive Shrieker, which for me is auto-include so far).

I really think a lot of the extra damage Uthuk get comes from flanks. Looking only at raw damage - while easy - doesn’t tell a big part of the story. Here’s a high level summary of the last match with Jukey:

-Ravos charges terrain with scion in it. Kills scion. 14 to Uthuk

-2x2 berserkers head on charge and kill solo scion. 14 points me

-1x3 cats hits 2x2 berserkers and kill berserkers and drop to 1 tray. 39-30 advantage Latari.

1x3 cats hits other 2x2 berserkers. This time would have won fight if Thresher hadn’t flanked and finished Leonx. 39-30 advantage Latari

-Aliana Kills Ravos with a flank charge because 1 tray on 1 tray charges are weird. 43 point advantage Latari

-Aliana (now wounded) charges thresher and can’t kill it without Lethal stacking. Threshers kills Aliana for 34.

-Thesher kills 2x1 archers

-43 point 2x2 Rippers flanks and trashes 2x2 Derpwoods with Maegan. 40+ point swing.

Look at the various swings through the game, the only big swing to Uthuk was the flank charge on the Derpwoods and Threshers killing a wounded Aliana. The actual combat this time was the closest it had been in a while. Functionally, Combat was something like 194 destroyed to 120-ish destroyed, but I got the bounty. This match was probably my worst match in terms of getting panic tests and flank charges and the combat score reflected it compared to the past results.

I'd be curious to see too. Everyone in my area plays Waqar and Daqan. I play Latari, and I've recently picked up Uthuk.

I can see MSU working, but I wonder if some of the other solid staples could work. Rune Manipulation+Fire Rune+Maegan Figure pumps an awful lot of damage and would do a mess of damage to low armor units. I was also horsing around with a 6 tray Scions and Dispatch runner last night. Those should hold up well (1 scion lost per attack, perhaps), but would be getting 2-3 attacks off potentially per one to the opponent. I had Maegan as a secondary candidate for the Dispatch runner in the right list, and a bunch of surge damage from her at every unit in range is exactly what you need to whittle down a bunch of low armor units. I've also been playing around with Verdant Sorceress for the two overgrowth tokens, which may come into effect if you have bid and can place two pieces of terrain. I find that the act of placing two pieces of terrain greatly increases your flexibility and can be used to create funnels and to delay how different kinds of units approach you, and/or disrupt their rhythm of attacks.

17 hours ago, Church14 said:

I really think a lot of the extra damage Uthuk get comes from flanks. Looking only at raw damage - while easy - doesn’t tell a big part of the story. Here’s a high level summary of the last match with Jukey:

I hope it didn't come across that I think that base efficiency is the only thing making Uthuk strong. The math I did for our episode I did for the purposes of one particular comparison, but of course there are a ton of other factors - dials, deployments and objectives, engagements, play style, army builds, and so on. We just wanted to look at the design of the base unit in terms of one specific thing, to see what kind of variation we found.

My experience with Uthuk so far has been different than yours, so I am curious what your army was for the game you mentioned. I am not denying that flank charges are big damage swings, and maybe I should be working harder to get them, but I haven't made them a big part of my plan thus far, so maybe that's due to army composition. I'd be interested to compare!

1 hour ago, FranquesEnbiens said:

I hope it didn't come across that I think that base efficiency is the only thing making Uthuk strong. The math I did for our episode I did for the purposes of one particular comparison, but of course there are a ton of other factors - dials, deployments and objectives, engagements, play style, army builds, and so on. We just wanted to look at the design of the base unit in terms of one specific thing, to see what kind of variation we found.

My experience with Uthuk so far has been different than yours, so I am curious what your army was for the game you mentioned. I am not denying that flank charges are big damage swings, and maybe I should be working harder to get them, but I haven't made them a big part of my plan thus far, so maybe that's due to army composition. I'd be interested to compare!

I didn’t get the impression that was all you looked at. You guys did talk about dials. I have just found that the damage output of berserkers and Rippers are pretty bad if you don’t flank. Especially if you run into armor and don’t flank

Here is the list from that specific match:

Here is the standard list for me (you guys have seen it). This tends to do better. I was trying variations to improve on it.

I still am underwhelmed by my Fire Rune “archers” and was looking for a good replacement. I do not think 2 4tray berserker “panic blobs” was the right solution. I also was trying out 2x2 Rippers instead of 2 2x1. I used MOI because I have the card and don’t value Rank Discipline as highly as you guys do.

Another detail I didn’t list, but I think mattered, is that this was the first match where Jukey took 1st player in a long time. He normally subscribes to the same approach your group does: Having initiative on turn two means beating opponents on charges and attacks.

This time he took first, chose deployment, and was able to place two pieces of terrain in a way to make a good flank rush more difficult for me. Especially as we drew Hammer and Anvil for deployment.

I think not taking 1st against Uthuk if you have the option is a losing proposal. Everyone has repeatedly said that Uthuk are always in their face immediately. How better to slow down the Zerg rush than to control more of the battlefield during setup?

12 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I have just found that the damage output of berserkers and Rippers are pretty bad if you don’t flank. Especially if you run into armor and don’t flank

The Rippers don't do a ton of damage without flanking, that's for sure. So far I have used just use one 2x2 unit of them with Rank, and most of the time I run them around until I have a good engagement. The Berserkers have done one of two things for me. Either people saw the big block of them and went at it, in which case I used it to tie them up so my other units could try to flank, or people ignored it and I was able to flank charge, at which point they start doing pretty good damage, as you said.

Probably the biggest difference between ours is that I have only run the 2-tray Threshers - I'd be curious to hear what you think if you gave them a shot. I've been really happy with their damage output, especially as a 28 point, threat three unit, even without flanking. If you can flank, their damage becomes insane for the points.

19 minutes ago, Church14 said:

I think not taking 1st against Uthuk if you have the option is a losing proposal. Everyone has repeatedly said that Uthuk are always in their face immediately. How better to slow down the Zerg rush than to control more of the battlefield during setup?

That's interesting - I think I have chosen to go second in every game I have played so far. There were games where I wanted the extra terrain control, but the benefit of the choice of deployment and having the initiative on the even number rounds always outweighed it for me. With the deployments I have played so far (Hammer and Anvil, Standoff, Careful Approach, Unprepared), I haven't found myself having too much trouble dealing with the terrain. Of course, all our tournaments so far have used store terrain, and not our own decks yet, so that may be part of it as well.

Much as I like getting first choice of charge on turn 2, I'm finding that choice of terrain can be everything. Being able to make a pocket where 3 wide units can't reach can really help.

I think when facing uthuk, terrain with no capacity is rather helpful, as others have pointed out the uthuk are not the greatest at turning. I've made the mistake of bringing large terrain and it really just makes it easier for the uthuk.

In the few skirmishes when I brought Fleshrippers, they frequently caught my opponent off guard with their speed.

It took a few attempts, but they are surprisingly maneuverable in 2x2 blocks too. Sure they can't turn charge, but that also makes your opponent think they can't turn move at all.

Today I tried this:

Maegan Cyndewin [36] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 36

Deepwood Archers [17] 2x1
Tempered Steel [3]
Close Quarters Targeting [3]
Total Unit Cost: 23

Deepwood Archers [17] 2x1
Tempered Steel [3]
Close Quarters Targeting [3]
Total Unit Cost: 23

Leonx Riders [24] 1x3
Metered March [2]
Column Tactics [4]
Total Unit Cost: 30

Leonx Riders [24] 1x3
Metered March [2]
Column Tactics [4]
Total Unit Cost: 30

Aymhelin Scions [14] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 14

Aymhelin Scions [14] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 14

Aymhelin Scions [14] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 14

Aymhelin Scions [14] 1x1
Total Unit Cost: 14

I pulled off a decisive win against church’s dual core uthuk army. Some of it was dice and bad calls on church’s maneuvers, so we rematched. I dropped a scion to put Fdice on Meagan. He got me the second game but it wasn’t an easy victory.

I’m happy to find a build that worked finally. Tempered steel really puts the hurt on uthuk. It makes me want more rally totems from the elf core.

How do you feel about the close quarters targeting? I usually would only use it on a bigger unit.

Take a look at rallying Starling as it helps a ton since you can remove the initial panics from ravos and use it for your tempered steel later.

1 hour ago, Xquer said:

How do you feel about the close quarters targeting? I usually would only use it on a bigger unit.

Take a look at rallying Starling as it helps a ton since you can remove the initial panics from ravos and use it for your tempered steel later.

CQT is cheap enough that I like it as a failsafe, and both games I got use out of it. Rallying starling would be nice but I’d need bigger archer units, might try it on a 2x2?

Im curious now to try a 3x2 of scions with tempered steel and fertile soil, they have a pretty high damage output and staying power.

37 minutes ago, Jukey said:

Im curious now to try a 3x2 of scions with tempered steel and fertile soil, they have a pretty high damage output and staying power.

Did that without tempered steel (pathwalker's amulet) on Tuesday. In retrospect, Tempered steel is the absolute no-brainer, likely to trigger multiple times per game. Dispatch runner makes them likely to deck out a big stack of something that hits them all on the same turn. You want enough range between the Scions and other archer units that they cannot NOT come at the Scions, even though they'd rather not.