On 3/20/2018 at 7:23 PM, Cloaker said:

Especially in regards to huge ships and shields. Some of this seems to stick in the game, some not so much....

lol, this video is absurd apologist nonsense. TLJ was an ADHD riddled matrix of inconsitancies, plot holes, failed internal logic and incongruity glued together with bad writing and worse directing. pacing and character development werent there, things happened randomly, as though the unconnected CGI teams filmed scenes first and the writers tried to tie it together. it was not only not a good fit for star wars, it was a horrible film period.

the space combat wasnt "explained", it didnt make any sense at all

ifor example, in Return of the Jedi the Falcon flies inside the death star and it looked cool. it made sense only because Lando has detailed schematics(and a navigator co-pilot) and knows he can fit through the access tubes...

in TLJ the falcon fights several hundred tie fighters alone, then flies in an unmapped hole in the ground blind and makes nonsense maneuvers until everyone else dies.

Theres the resistance bomber stupidity(magnetic bombs would fly back at the bomber, lol)

Poes idiotic solo run at a capital shipthe stupid nonsense just doesnt stop. its an overwhelming number of plot holes that make it difficult to even summarize whats wrong with the film

>Fights several hundred fighters alone

TLJ haters are resorting to playground levels of hyperbole now, huh?

7 hours ago, JediSamurai said:

there are ray shields and particle shields, both combined make deflector shields. hangar bays on ships are typically ray shielded. a secondary particle shield can be raised to stop ordinance/enemy ships from entering. raddus bridge was destroyed because the raddus had it's shields double back, leaving the front exposed.

The Raddus (presumably) made the right choice having shields double-back while it was only being attacked from the rear. It'd make a lot of sense, however, to even out the shields when munitions armed fighters begin attacking the front. Or evacuate senior personel from the bridge. Or scramble fighters to ward them off.

7 hours ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

Lol, the guy who tried to explain the difference, using physics, between energy and particle weapons is suddenly unwilling to accept F=MA as a weapon?

Kylo Ren thought the effort to project across the galaxy would kill Rey so why is it so bad that Luke died doing it?

Rose has acted in defense of others the whole movie. Also she succeeded because Finn lived.

What has given you the impression Kylo isn't a crazed dude blinded by rage? Was it him not noticing the blue light-saber? Was it when he threw Hux around to establish himself as supreme leader? Was it in the last movie where he just chops up a computer? Kylo is an impulsive guy who doesn't think about what he's doing.

You're attempting to divert attention away from my argument here. It's called a strawman fallacy, and it's essentially the most useless contribution to a discussion of any sort. Regardless:

F=MA is a weapon. You know, in the right circumstances. The fact that weapons like the hyperspace ram haven't been used before is a pretty clear indication that it, for whatever reason, doesn't work in universe. I, for one, was aware of the concept for years, so it stands to reason tactical planners would have thought of it. So sure, the weapon can exist, but since it's quite literally the most deadly weapon in star wars history it stands to reason it would have been used before then. It's not a war crime to use, otherwise the Resistance wouldn't have used it, on principle. Therefore, there's no reason for it to onlybe used now, except someone thought "hey, this will look awesome!".

Well, Luke had a couple alternative courses of action he could go through. He could actually go with Rey when she leaves and fight alongside her, enabling them both to kill Snoke and capture Kylo for 'rehabilitation'. If he left just a little after Rey he'd still arrive in time for the Salt-planet battle, at which he'd promptly swing the tide of battle, given how pathetically few FO troops there were. Luke didn't have to die - in fact, dying in that manner is probably one of the worst things he could have done.

Rose has failed at everything she tried to accomplish. Her and Finn's side arc harmed the Resistance. She saved Finn, which was an entirely selfish act because it prevented Finn from saving hundreds of lives; including numerous veteran personnel and friends of Rose.

The fact that Kylo can have sane conversations most of the time, for one. Regardless, a crazy dude blinded by age, or a brilliant tactician, or an instinctual fighter (of which kylo is at least two, and Hux the third) would see a grounded, underarmed force and either nuke them from orbit or, if he wanted to job done himself, would deploy the garrisons from every remaining Star Destroyer, which is at least 4, not including the batwing+. That course of action is both in character and tactically sound.

7 hours ago, JediSamurai said:

wasn't the vast majority of the FO ships destroyed anyways?

No, no they were not. The rebellion accomplished the following:
Destroying a single dreadnought, at the cost of most of the rebel snubfighter fleet.
Wounding an enormous ship, of which one hanger bay was shown to contain more landing craft, personnel and assault vehicles than was sent to the salt planet.

In addition, numerous visible Star Destroyers surrounded the batwing+. Going off the assumption that they could hold more troops than an ISD, given their larger size and the fact that in TFA we see hanger bays full of troops, it stands to reason that each of them could muster around 10'000 plus troops. That's a bare minimum of 40'000 troops; enough to create a wall of troopers around the Rebels base, and slowly constrict it until the last man standing was killed.

TLJ is a flawed film, overlong and has problems with pacing and some cheesy dialogue in places, not much different from the prequels. But it’s not a bad film, above average I would say. It’s also a great sequel in that it takes the series into a very different and interesting direction, for better or worse.

that said, I will say the one criticism that I notice that shows me that critics and fans alike completely miss the point of one scene: Finn trying to fly his skimmer into the FO BFG. After Poe calls off the attack at the end of the movie Finn continues to fly towards the GUN, even though his skimmer is literally melting around him. And then Rose crashes into him. While that crash could and probably should have killed them, people assume that Rose doomed the Resistence because she stopped Finn from crashing into the big gun. Excuse me, but Finn’s speeder was not going to damage that huge machine even if it successfully crashed into it before it fired anyway. That skimmer would have spatted or splashed onto the gun in a shower of parts, melted metal and fried former stormtrooper. Finn would have thrown away his life for nothing.

rose is still annoying for being so childish back on Canto Bight concerning the space horses.

1 hour ago, Astech said:

. Or scramble fighters to ward them off.

I don’t know if you noticed, but there kinda was an explosion in the hangar

The turoblasers on the FO ships that arced like artillery shat me to tears.

I dont mind TFA or TLJ; theyre not great films but theyre not bad either. What shats me is the inconsistencies with the established SW world. Whilst it might be sci-fi fantasy, Star Wars always had (for the most part) agreed upon 'rules' about the way things worked.

The new films play fast and loose with these rules: Hyperspace through shields into planetary atmospheres; turbolasers that 'lob' shots like physical artillery; a superlaser that can travel across the galaxy in seconds and be seen by planets far away; etc. etc.

These are not necessarily bad concepts for a sci-fi film. But they are bad concepts for a Star Wars film.

8 hours ago, Vontoothskie said:

lol, this video is absurd apologist nonsense. TLJ was an ADHD riddled matrix of inconsitancies, plot holes, failed internal logic and incongruity glued together with bad writing and worse directing. pacing and character development werent there, things happened randomly, as though the unconnected CGI teams filmed scenes first and the writers tried to tie it together. it was not only not a good fit for star wars, it was a horrible film period.

The words you strung together fit the situation more perfectly than I could ever hope to achieve.

6 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

>Fights several hundred fighters alone

TLJ haters are resorting to playground levels of hyperbole now, huh?

Let me see... An ISD has a complement of 72 TIE fighters, at a bare minimum even on dead-end assignments. Let's also be generous and say the batwing+ had absolutely no fighters on it, so just the approximately 6 FO Destroyers are contributing fighters. given scenes in TFA showing incredibly compact fighter storage, I believe it's pretty safe to assume that FO Destroyers have at least the same starfighter complement that ISDs maintain.

We know that the Rebel fleet has been massacred, so there's literally zero chance of an effective space assault on the FO fleet. We know that the rebels have zero gound-based anti-air emplacements. We know the Resistance evacuated rapidly, after losing their own hangar bays, so they have no fighters and minimal handheld anti-air power of their own. So, there's no reason whatsoever for the FO to not launch every single fighter at their disposal to hunt down the Falcon.

Being generous here, you're looking at a bare minimum of 432 TIEs - and probably numerous more specialist craft that excel at destroying light freighters.

So yes, the Falcon was fighting several hundred fighters alone. Of course, most of those fighters self-destructed because plot.

2 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

That said, I will say the one criticism that I notice that shows me that critics and fans alike completely miss the point of one scene: Finn trying to fly his skimmer into the FO BFG. After Poe calls off the attack at the end of the movie Finn continues to fly towards the GUN, even though his skimmer is literally melting around him. And then Rose crashes into him. While that crash could and probably should have killed them, people assume that Rose doomed the Resistence because she stopped Finn from crashing into the big gun. Excuse me, but Finn’s speeder was not going to damage that huge machine even if it successfully crashed into it before it fired anyway. That skimmer would have spatted or splashed onto the gun in a shower of parts, melted metal and fried former stormtrooper. Finn would have thrown away his life for nothing.

In essence, the Resistance flew their remaining ace pilots - an invaluable resource - into battle against targets with they knew they wouldn't be able to defeat, at a time when they had no idea that any support would be coming from the Falcon.

Given the lack of information we have about the scenario, I believe the Rebels had a plan to destroy the cannon. Perhaps the skimmers had a powerful self-destruct device that could disable the weapon, buying time for an evacuation?

34 minutes ago, Astech said:

Being generous here, you're looking at a bare minimum of 432 TIEs - and probably numerous more specialist craft that excel at destroying light freighters.

So yes, the Falcon was fighting several hundred fighters alone. Of course, most of those fighters self-destructed because plot.

o h m y g o d

You are actually making up stuff to support your point. We saw no more than a dozen onscreen. And you actually think there were hundreds we didn't see.

Haha, okay, sorry. This is genuinely not worth it, I don't do this often but feel free to have the last word.

29 minutes ago, Astech said:

Given the lack of information we have about the scenario, I believe the Rebels had a plan to destroy the cannon. Perhaps the skimmers had a powerful self-destruct device that could disable the weapon, buying time for an evacuation?

Their plan was to radio anyone in the galaxy for help but the calm was not headed. If the call had sent allies then there may have been a chance of breaking the blockade and the ground siege as long as the shield door remained intact. And it seemed to me that the plan to knock out the big cannon was to concentrate fire on it. Once they lost too many skimmers there was no hope of damaging the weapon.

And I doubt the Rebel Resistence had any time to rig up self destructs or bombs or EMPs. They had vehicles that barely worked to begin with. Finn was going all Kamikaze probably because he knew he screwed up and cost the galaxy any chance at freedom with the Resistence wiped out. If he had a chance at delaying or destroying the cannon he was going to try. I just believe he had zero chance of having any effect.

7 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

>Fights several hundred fighters alone

TLJ haters are resorting to playground levels of hyperbole now, huh?

no, there are somewhere around 250 plus fighters in that scene. find a screen grab

9 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

o h m y g o d

You are actually making up stuff to support your point. We saw no more than a dozen onscreen. And you actually think there were hundreds we didn't see.

Haha, okay, sorry. This is genuinely not worth it, I don't do this often but feel free to have the last word.

Changing the kerning of words merely makes it annoying to read.

You saw a dozen onscreen, because the screenwriters thought "yeah, a dozen TIEs against the Falcon - that'll look sweet!" and so they made it happen. Of course, the screenwriters also showed us in TFA that FO Destroyers carry as many TIEs - if not more than - as an ISD. For the reasons I previously highlighted, there is no reason to hold a single TIE back from attacking the bunker and the Falcon. Ergo, there should be hundreds of TIEs swarming around the Falcon after its poorly thought out plan to dive into the thick of things. Instead, the screenwriters go "yeah! Good job! That seems like a fair, engaging fight!"

They're contradicting themselves, previous canon examples and common Star Wars military doctrine.

8 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Their plan was to radio anyone in the galaxy for help but the calm was not headed. If the call had sent allies then there may have been a chance of breaking the blockade and the ground siege as long as the shield door remained intact. And it seemed to me that the plan to knock out the big cannon was to concentrate fire on it. Once they lost too many skimmers there was no hope of damaging the weapon.

And I doubt the Rebel Resistence had any time to rig up self destructs or bombs or EMPs. They had vehicles that barely worked to begin with. Finn was going all Kamikaze probably because he knew he screwed up and cost the galaxy any chance at freedom with the Resistence wiped out. If he had a chance at delaying or destroying the cannon he was going to try. I just believe he had zero chance of having any effect.

But surely the pilots knew most of them would be destroyed before a shot was fired, right? The things were barely functioning, and they were flying against the highest tech ground vehicles in the galaxy. However, Rose taking out Finn's speeder left them both in no man's land between the two forces; the most deadly place to be on any battlefield. She ended up guaranteeing his death even more than a suicide attack would. If it weren't for both Luke and the Falcon's timely (and entirely unpredictable) appearence, they'd both be dead.

So i went back and checked, they show 50+ ties approaching the falcon in one single shot at the battle of crait. Its safe to assume that every Tie on the planet isnt lined up for that camera angle in that single attack run, but even if we do not assume that, thats still 50 advanced fighters with onsite operational command(kylos shuttle) and 6 AT-MOARs Plus whatever brought them to the surface.

Han Freaked out about 3 older model Tie Fighters and was literally says "dont get cocky kid" to Luke when they defeat them.

Can we all agree that 50 tie fighters is a lot of tie fighters for a derelict freighter to take down?

More over, None of the apologists here have addressed my real point with that, which is How in holy **** does Chewie fly blindly into a hole in the ground and survive? why does he fly into a hole in the ground? its not like he has magic hole in the ground vision or else he wouldn't have flown into a friggin exogorths mouth in Empire strikes back.

and those are just 2 of over a hundred major issues with the film.

21 minutes ago, Astech said:

They're contradicting themselves, previous canon examples and common Star Wars military doctrine.

Like in A New Hope when the death star deployed every last TIE it had to deal with the rebels, right? That military doctrine?

anyway TLJ is a game of whack-a-mole. it has sooo many issues that its just exausting even trying to list them.

add a bunch of people using circular logic to move a goal post anytime they're in danger of changing their minds and there isn't even a point. TLJ was a bad film and performed dramatically bellow expectations as a result. Disney Thought it was bad too, which is why they pulled the reigns from Rian Johnson and tried to salvage it. My guess is that their meddling made it worse and led to the weird inconsistency, but whatever. If we are lucky the whole story and universe will see a time jump into the future or past where they can tell a decent tale.

Old Republic anyone?

Not at all. You see, on Salt-planet, the Rebel forces were pinned to a position and the FO could take all the time it needed (about 8 minutes, going by US standards) to scramble the hundreds of fighters at its disposal.

The Death Star, by contrast, was thought to be immune to small fighter craft. In the 8 minutes the Death Star would take to get in firing range and therefore win, fighters would have barely left the hangar. So the Imperials cll upon their ace pilots - whose status entitles them to permanently prepped vehicles on continuous standby: Vader and Black Squadron.

It's quickly proven that this is all that is necessary, as suppression fire from the Death Star combined with the superior Imperial vessels quickly eradicated 21 ships, leaving just Luke, Wedge and Biggs on a final attack run, which would have failed if not for a Space--Wizards interference.

Sound military doctrine comparing to brain-dead screenwriting.

I love this conversation. Absolute contortionism to explain away every flaw in the OT and then dredging the lake to conceive of every flaw in TLJ.

It's ******* hilarious!

1 hour ago, Astech said:

But surely the pilots knew most of them would be destroyed before a shot was fired, right? The things were barely functioning, and they were flying against the highest tech ground vehicles in the galaxy. However, Rose taking out Finn's speeder left them both in no man's land between the two forces; the most deadly place to be on any battlefield. She ended up guaranteeing his death even more than a suicide attack would. If it weren't for both Luke and the Falcon's timely (and entirely unpredictable) appearence, they'd both be dead.

This I agree with. Poe and Finn used what little they had, and those skimmers just weren’t up to snuff. Resistence pilots tend to over estimate their flying ability as well. But they had hope, at least before they lost so many. Rose....oh god why...the writers just write themselves into a bad place and didn’t make it any better. At least Finn lived, and we got to see Rey get a little jealous at the end.

concerning the hundreds of TIEs...why do we only see 4 TIEs chasing the Falcon in the asteroids in ESB? The ISD Avenger surely had more than that. There must be some reason....

43 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

How in holy **** does Chewie fly blindly into a hole in the ground and survive? why does he fly into a hole in the ground?

Appearantly in the 30 years since the OT the common smuggler tactic is to fly close to the ground and into holes for ‘cover’. Yeah, maybe the Falcon Had an old map of the terrain around the abandoned Rebel base. Or Chewie used the force. Or Rey was actually piloting from the turret.

Yeah.

i didnt like that sequence, we’ve literally seen it in like 3 movies already? Or more, it’s hard to remember. Even the dish getting knocked off...

7 minutes ago, Sekac said:

I love this conversation. Absolute contortionism to explain away every flaw in the OT and then dredging the lake to conceive of every flaw in TLJ.

It's ******* hilarious!

It's the best!

1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

no, there are somewhere around 250 plus fighters in that scene. find a screen grab

Burden'a proof ain't on me.

28 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

anyway TLJ is a game of whack-a-mole. it has sooo many issues that its just exausting even trying to list them.

add a bunch of people using circular logic to move a goal post anytime they're in danger of changing their minds and there isn't even a point. TLJ was a bad film and performed dramatically bellow expectations as a result. Disney Thought it was bad too, which is why they pulled the reigns from Rian Johnson and tried to salvage it. My guess is that their meddling made it worse and led to the weird inconsistency, but whatever. If we are lucky the whole story and universe will see a time jump into the future or past where they can tell a decent tale.

Old Republic anyone?

WHOA-HO-HO DUDE, DUUUUUUUUUUDE.

28 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

Old Republic anyone?

>AS IF THE OLD REPUBLIC ISN'T THE MOST PROBLEMATIC ERA IN STAR WARS FICTION HISTORY

14 minutes ago, Sekac said:

I love this conversation. Absolute contortionism to explain away every flaw in the OT and then dredging the lake to conceive of every flaw in TLJ.

It's ******* hilarious!

34 minutes ago, Vontoothskie said:

add a bunch of people using circular logic to move a goal post anytime they're in danger of changing their minds and there isn't even a point.

@Sekac, you should probably read the posts of others, rather than responding in hyperbole without actually stating facts to support your arguments.

11 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Concerning the hundreds of TIEs...why do we only see 4 TIEs chasing the Falcon in the asteroids in ESB? The ISD Avenger surely had more than that. There must be some reason....

That comes down to specialist knowledge. If the odds of a highly maneuverable, shielded ship like the Falcon being piloted by Han has such low odds of uccessfully navigating an asteroid field, how low do you think the odds are for a TIE Fighter with a pilot fresh out of the academy. It's likely that onboard Vader's ISD, only a handful of pilots had experience chasing more maneuverable ships through asteroid fields, hence the small group.

14 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Burden'a proof ain't on me.

What happened to your statement about giving me the last word? I guess internet trolls have to feed continuously.

The burden of proof is on both sides in a debate. That's kinda their central tenant. myself, @Vontoothskie and @GrimmyV have all presented arguments backed by fact. We've proved our point. Now try annd disprove it using actual arguments, not BS.

Hundreds. God. Hundreds. I can't even.

31 minutes ago, Astech said:

, you should probably read the posts of others, rather than responding in hyperbole without actually stating facts to support your arguments.

I have read them.

Your approach to every single point about the inconsistencies of the OT is "it must make sense, so how can I prove that it does."

Your approach to every single point about TLJ is "it makes no sense, and I will put no effort into rationalizing it"

I don't care to engage in it more specifically because I know what the reply will be with certainty.

I mean, if your reasoning for why lasers bouncing inside of a trash compactor makes sense is that bullets bounce off armor IRL, therefore lasers would probably bounce off the probably magnetic walls, then what possible chance is there that I can get you to admit it makes no sense? Especially considering none of the metal objects are reacting to your probably-magnet, there's no reason to have a magnetic trash can, nor any reason to believe that lasers would bounce off magnetic walls. The door being sealed magnetically has no bearing on lasers bouncing all over the room. The scene reeks of space mumbo-jumbo and your response is to take it as gospel truth because the OT can't be wrong, rather than acknowledge that it, in fact, makes no Goddamn sense at all.

Rinse and repeat.

1 hour ago, Captain Lackwit said:

>AS IF THE OLD REPUBLIC ISN'T THE MOST PROBLEMATIC ERA IN STAR WARS FICTION HISTORY

But...HK. We would get HK!

Well, probably not. Crap.

also magnets must work like lasers in SW. and parsecs. And light speed. And human/alien slavery with cheap robot labor.?And the ability to get from one star system to another and then another in a few days/weeks/less than a human lifetime without the aid of an FTL drive. Yeah, SW just doesn’t work when you look under the hood, OT, PT, ST, side stories, just don’t dig too deep.

18 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Guys it's simple.

Lasers don't get through shields. Objects do. This is why Fighters exist and why Poe did what Poe did. So they fly under shields and attack exposed stuff.

There we go.

That easy.

The Last Jedi literally showed us that's how it works and nothing we have disproves that at the slightest at all.

Let's admit that were true. Doesn't this turn every single capital ship designer into a blundering idiot?

I can't recall any circumstance in Star Wars where anyone aboard a capital ship ever derived anything useful from looking out of the window. Considering that and the fact that a single fighter getting through can cripple or destroy it, why do people keep building ships with the bridge in exposed and obvious locations? Considering TLJ, wouldn't it make much more sense to place the bridge in the middle of the ship, under thick armor?

48 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Let's admit that were true. Doesn't this turn every single capital ship designer into a blundering idiot?

I can't recall any circumstance in Star Wars where anyone aboard a capital ship ever derived anything useful from looking out of the window. Considering that and the fact that a single fighter getting through can cripple or destroy it, why do people keep building ships with the bridge in exposed and obvious locations? Considering TLJ, wouldn't it make much more sense to place the bridge in the middle of the ship, under thick armor?

Uh, it's Star Wars and that's just how the setting has always done it?

Of course it makes sense to put it under loads of armor. But bridges with windows are cool. Like really, trying to rationalize the design of anything in Star Wars is, no offense, stupid. Why are TIEs shaped the way they are? The **** is up with the rearward only control surfaces on X-Wings like, what the actual ****? Gun convergence settings are outright mandatory? What a crappy fighter.

Except, it's Star Wars.

That's just how we do things in it.

A couple interesting points in there, but TLJ at best "visually clarifies" what most of us already knew. There is plenty of implicit and explicit evidence to the points made here.

Not to mention that TLJ also breaks a lot of established rules just for the heck of it, as does this video- such as the TiE fighters not being in danger close to a ship. They explode 2 seconds later due to AA.