Begun, the new Trilogy, has.

Rian Johnson’s response to fan uproar

Queue the EpVII and Rian Johnson haters in 3...2...1...

Seriously though, I have mixed feelings about Rian Johnson taking the reins on this new trilogy. The original announcement before the TLJ release fueled my excitement for TLJ. At the time I thought, “They’re trusting him with a whole new trilogy? He must have done an amazing job on Episode 8!” Then I saw the movie and I’ve had time to really ponder it. I conlcuded for everything I love about TLJ, there is some else cringe-worthy or worse. Despite the negatives, I embrace the movie with every other imperfect Star Wars film. Post-ponder, I’m still left with a nagging question:

How many of TLJ’s flaws were directly Rian Johnson’s fault?

Some of those flaws are so bad, I don’t want the person responsible in a position to repeat similar decisions.

25 minutes ago, jmswood said:

Queue the EpVII and Rian Johnson haters in 3...2...1...

OK, I'll bite. I hated 8. Like I've not hated a SW movie since Ep 2. But a I hated it because it felt disjointed from 7.

With Rian doing the whole thing, I'm hoping to get one vision, and a new vision for the SW galaxy at that.

And no matter how much I might be bummed that a movie is "meh" I'm still stoked that SW is being made. Actively, and for the foreseeable future.

And, I'll take your cue. It's hard to queue online

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

With Rian doing the whole thing, I'm hoping to get one vision, and a new vision for the SW galaxy at that.

This touches on my mixed feelings. Part of me wants to see what Rian Johnson can do with a blank canvas.

5 minutes ago, jmswood said:

This touches on my mixed feelings. Part of me wants to see what Rian Johnson can do with a blank canvas.

12 minutes ago, jmswood said:

Some of those flaws are so bad, I don’t want the person responsible in a position to repeat similar decisions.

Despite many people complaining that TFA was a rehash of ANH, my biggest disappointment was how a lot of the old characters were handled. I guess from my POV, while I wouldn't mind if SW "broke new ground," this trilogy is more about the nostalgia for the OT. And Rian stepped all over that.

RO and TFA were homage, as I think they should be; if you want to take SW someplace new, start from someplace new.

I’m all for it.

Episode 8 was fantastic, I’m sure this trilogy will be as well.

4 hours ago, jmswood said:

Queue the EpVII and Rian Johnson haters in 3...2...1...

Ha!

I wondered who would step in to say that.

The critiques here are well thought of and articulate, and very close to my own line of thinking. It’s not bashing for bashing’s sake.

So thank you, well done and kudos to all above.

6 hours ago, jmswood said:

Queue the EpVII and Rian Johnson haters in 3...2...1...

I meant EpVIII, but EpVII fits too. There’s still a lot of hate out there for TFA and JJ.

Shifting gears a bit, who would you pick to write and direct an all new SW trilogy?

I would totally support Gareth Edwards to direct, but I’m not sure about the writing.

10 hours ago, jmswood said:

Seriously though, I have mixed feelings about Rian Johnson taking the reins on this new trilogy. The original announcement before the TLJ release fueled my excitement for TLJ. At the time I thought, “They’re trusting him with a whole new trilogy? He must have done an amazing job on Episode 8!” Then I saw the movie and I’ve had time to really ponder it. I conlcuded for everything I love about TLJ, there is some else cringe-worthy or worse. Despite the negatives, I embrace the movie with every other imperfect Star Wars film. Post-ponder, I’m still left with a nagging question:

How many of TLJ’s flaws were directly Rian Johnson’s fault?

Some of those flaws are so bad, I don’t want the person responsible in a position to repeat similar decisions.

He was the writer and director, he made a conscious choice to ignore the plan for the trilogy jj put down on paper, his Killing Luke made the planned director for IX quit because luke was a massive part of his planned movie.

Hes 100% responsible.

45 minutes ago, Hobojebus said:

He was the writer and director, he made a conscious choice to ignore the plan for the trilogy jj put down on paper, his Killing Luke made the planned director for IX quit because luke was a massive part of his planned movie.

Hes 100% responsible.

I wouldn't be surprised if JJ handwaves most of what happened in The Last Jedi, just like Ruin handwaved most of the story from TFA.

Snoke returns (Kylo merely killed a clone), Luke returns (he didn't actually die in the first place, just "reconnected" with the Force), Phasma returns (because of course she does)...

Might as well give up on sequel-era movies now and move full steam ahead with remaking the original trilogy. We have Obi-Ewan, Young Han, Young Lando, Chewie, R2 and C-3PO are timeless, just need to cast Young Luke and Young Leia and we're all set for A New New Hope to be announced in 2020 or so.

3 hours ago, Hobojebus said:

He was the writer and director, he made a conscious choice to ignore the plan for the trilogy jj put down on paper, his Killing Luke made the planned director for IX quit because luke was a massive part of his planned movie.

Hes 100% responsible.

I’m not going to line item my own complaints about TLJ, but I will say Luke’s death isn’t one of them.

If the producers had a problem with Rian Johnson’s deviations from JJ’s plan, they could have done something about it. I think recent history shows us they would have intervened if Rian wasn’t doing what they wanted. The producers ordered reshoots in Rogue One and fired the directors of the upcoming Han Solo movie. Those facts make me wonder, how many of of the controversial elements of TLJ were imposed or enforced by the producers?

Is Rian Johnson responsible? Certainly. Is he the only one responsible? Certainly not.

10 hours ago, jmswood said:

Shifting gears a bit, who would you pick to write and direct an all new SW trilogy?

Dave Filoni (and about ten others working with him). And 90% of characters would be portrayed by Dee Bradley Baker.

I think a Clone Wars live action trilogy would beat out the original trilogy and become my new favorite movie trilogy of all time.

21 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

Dave Filoni (and about ten others working with him).

Dave Filoni and Co. do great work. I think they should keep doing great work in animation, and the people doing live action Star Wars could learn a thing or two from the animation department.

2 hours ago, jmswood said:

Dave Filoni and Co. do great work. I think they should keep doing great work in animation, and the people doing live action Star Wars could learn a thing or two from the animation department.

Yeah Filoni does great work because he worked closely with Lucas for so long so he really understands the lore and mythology and can think like Lucas without his presence anymore.

As opposed to JJ who just recreates his favorite parts from star wars or Rian who tries to be different and break all the star wars rules.

So far Edwards has done the best job, possibly because the story came from John Knoll who also spent many years with Lucas.

1 hour ago, markcsoul said:

Yeah Filoni does great work because he worked closely with Lucas for so long so he really understands the lore and mythology and can think like Lucas without his presence anymore.

As opposed to JJ who just recreates his favorite parts from star wars or Rian who tries to be different and break all the star wars rules.

So far Edwards has done the best job, possibly because the story came from John Knoll who also spent many years with Lucas.

I have my beefs with Filoni and Edwards in that they just don’t deliver anything of essence to me in the way that TLJ did. Filoni’s lore does expand into the fantasy realm for sure which is a bit beyond my own tastes, but Edwards’ work was just straight up false advertisement and poor editing. With TLJ I felt like there was an obvious break from “standardized” Star Wars rather than what people like to consider “traditional” Star Wars.

Rebel Force Radio podcast has had the most palatable criticisms and discussions of TLJ over a lot of what I’ve read on the internet solely on the fact that they welcome criticism over outright hatred for the new movie. They brought up the idea of challenging our perceptions and expectations, which I feel like is a very enriching perspective on the film because it allows people to see the movie as is, rather than what we want it to be.

The “tradition” of Star Wars is seeing it with friends, playing with plastic ships, having an open discourse with others about whose side they’re on or what characters they enjoy. Such as I think TLJ was brilliant and enjoyable in the way it implemented new uses of the force, modern humor, and breaking away from the past to make ground for the future of Star Wars made TLJ a capstone movie to me. I also like how self aware Star Wars has become of Star Wars and also became subversive to expectations. It makes the content less predictable, like the “standard” Star Wars that people enjoy at the same intellectual level of a Michael Bay Transformers film (R1, TFA).

Pretty sure I’m just ranting now, oh well. Though, as a cop out for myself that a lot of other people have used in many discussions I’ve had on other occasions about TLJ, we all have our own opinions. And among those opinions I have, I feel like a lot of the fans’ reactions are unwarranted for bandwagon reasons or because they’re unaccepting of change or potential. Another is that I’m happy Rian can work on something without having strings attached to 40 years of Skywalker baggage that hindered him, as well as the claimed-majority fanbase who already made up their minds walking into the theatre.

edit: as a disclaimer, the fan reactions thing isn’t directed at anyone in particular in this thread, just my own anecdotal experience so far. So many people on Facebook and in the LGS have tried convincing me to not like the movie, but it just hasn’t worked on me.

TLJ was not the place to attempt subversion. A spin off or his new series would have been better and likely better received assuming Rian could muster the chops to do it competently. From my standpoint TLJ was a letdown because it added so much bad and removed so much good (or rather potential good). About 1/3 of the movie overall is what I'd consider watching again which is down from the 1/2 from TFA. So there'll be about 1 complete movie after 9 comes out.

14 minutes ago, McFoy said:

TLJ was not the place to attempt subversion.

I disagree. And I’d like to even hypothesize that if this wasn’t the right place for subversion, then no place would ever suffice for it.

Taking a primary plot of the Skywalker story and breaking ground through subversion for the sake of the Star Wars universe to expend was a great aspect of TLJ. And I think it wrote really well with the characters: Defeated/shutoff Luke- yet still saves the day, Kylo wanting to destroy the past for his own purposes/ambitions/story, Rey being a symbolic nobody but everybody in terms of using the Force, even the new Force powers. It challenged and expanded my expectations and ability to enjoy Star Wars in a positive way.

Now, I don’t think the movie was perfect, but I **** well enjoyed it as a Star Wars film.

On 3/19/2018 at 6:19 PM, jmswood said:

How many of TLJ’s flaws were directly Rian Johnson’s fault?

He was the writer and director, and if Daisy Ridely is to be believed he threw out JJ's script or notes for 8 to do his own thing. I sort of had to wonder if the announcement of his trilogy at one point wasn't actually just intended drum up hype for TLJ to try and help boost its box office. We do know that while it did good it fell short of expectations returns both for Disney and investors. Hasbro has even noted that fact with the Star Wars toys not selling as well as before, but I think a bit of that might be quality the last time I checked most of the toys aimed at children seemed comparable to the 90s Force line of quality (minus the every character being roided out and buffed) as opposed to those that came out around the Prequels, especially episode 3's figures.

On 3/19/2018 at 6:35 PM, Darth Meanie said:

Despite many people complaining that TFA was a rehash of ANH, my biggest disappointment was how a lot of the old characters were handled. I guess frommy POV, while I wouldn't mind if SW "broke new ground," this trilogy is more about the nostalgia for the OT. And Rian stepped all over that.

RO and TFA were homage, as I think they should be; if you want to take SW someplace new, start from someplace new.

Like many things, the new films are really trying to sell on Nostalgia, just like 90s where they turned lots of 60s and 70s TV shows into films, we now have lots of 80s and 90s stuff being rebooted or getting sequels. Likely because that is the generation their age group is aimed at (aka they have money!) I would argue that JJ stepped all over it first with TFA, the OT characters get really crap treatment in my mind, but it is a trend that started with TFA and is really a driving force of them trying real hard to reset to Empire vs Rebels.

On 3/20/2018 at 6:13 AM, FTS Gecko said:

I wouldn't be surprised if JJ handwaves most of what happened in The Last Jedi, just like Ruin handwaved most of the story from TFA.

Snoke returns (Kylo merely killed a clone), Luke returns (he didn't actually die in the first place, just "reconnected" with the Force), Phasma returns (because of course she does)...

Might as well give up on sequel-era movies now and move full steam ahead with remaking the original trilogy. We have Obi-Ewan, Young Han, Young Lando, Chewie, R2 and C-3PO are timeless, just need to cast Young Luke and Young Leia and we're all set for A New New Hope to be announced in 2020 or so.

Not sure who would play young Leia, but haven't a fair number of people offered that the guy who plays the Winter Soldier would be a decent choice for Luke? That said I don't really want to see them just remaking the older films, they are already timeless.

On 3/20/2018 at 10:48 AM, Kieransi said:

Dave Filoni (and about ten others working with him). And 90% of characters would be portrayed by Dee Bradley Baker.

I think a Clone Wars live action trilogy would beat out the original trilogy and become my new favorite movie trilogy of all time.

Yea, Dave Filoni would be a great choice. I do think he should have some more people there to help reel him in a little, he loves Star Wars and that is clear and he tries to give fans what they wanted but he sometimes likes to insert stuff more than he should. *cough* Wolves *cough* But, I think with his overall care for the lore, and the like he'd do really good in that position.

3 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

I would argue that JJ stepped all over it first with TFA, the OT characters get really crap treatment in my mind, but it is a trend that started with TFA and is really a driving force of them trying real hard to reset to Empire vs Rebels.

Yea, Dave Filoni . . . sometimes likes to insert stuff more than he should. *cough* Wolves *cough* But, I think with his overall care for the lore, and the like he'd do really good in that position.

I really didn't have a problem with how JJ did TFA. In that movie, whacking Solo was (A) part of the moving to story to the next level and (B) fulfilling Harrison's old desire for the character. To me, it sort of felt like a story arc from the OT that was finally fulfilled.

So Finoli likes wolves. . .consider it his trademark.

Yeah I reckon Ford would only do it if they killed him so I don't hold that against jj, but rian is forever on my skitja list for killing Luke after so misusing the character.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

I really didn't have a problem with how JJ did TFA. In that movie, whacking Solo was (A) part of the moving to story to the next level and (B) fulfilling Harrison's old desire for the character. To me, it sort of felt like a story arc from the OT that was finally fulfilled.

So Finoli likes wolves. . .consider it his trademark.

I mean more in the OT character's set up. Luke exiles himself, Han leaves Leia to be a smuggler with only Chewie as his ally and has possibly divorced Leia, and Leia's politcal career shatters and despite leading a Resistance force ends up losing the Republic she fought so hard for. The ST works so hard to reset everything to a psuedo Galactic Civil War that characters sort of suffer from it. We don't get to see Luke react to Han's death, Leia doesn't hug Chewie but Rey, the three OT characters don't even get to share any screen time all together. But then again I just feel that a pseudo Cold War with the Empire and New Republic trying to not break out into open war or the two while another force is trying to reignite flames of war would be a little more interesting. Especially if we saw older characters having to work with Imperial forces to try and stop the First Order. It would show how far they have come to work with former enemies for the galaxy's greater good or for peace.

1 hour ago, Animewarsdude said:

I mean more in the OT character's set up. Luke exiles himself, Han leaves Leia to be a smuggler with only Chewie as his ally and has possibly divorced Leia, and Leia's politcal career shatters and despite leading a Resistance force ends up losing the Republic she fought so hard for. The ST works so hard to reset everything to a psuedo Galactic Civil War that characters sort of suffer from it. We don't get to see Luke react to Han's death, Leia doesn't hug Chewie but Rey, the three OT characters don't even get to share any screen time all together. But then again I just feel that a pseudo Cold War with the Empire and New Republic trying to not break out into open war or the two while another force is trying to reignite flames of war would be a little more interesting. Especially if we saw older characters having to work with Imperial forces to try and stop the First Order. It would show how far they have come to work with former enemies for the galaxy's greater good or for peace.

I don't disagree with anything you just said. OTOH, TFA was not enough to wreck it for me. TLJ was.

In essence, TFA was really a lot like Timothy Zahn's reset as well. It's still Rebels vs. Empire, it's just that our Rebel heroes now have the authority of the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant is the underdog. But the whole storyline is still basically Reb vs Imp. with all the same characters, structure, and political alliances.

The ST could certainly have done a better job of passing the baton from the old generation to the new. I mean, at this point, is the new generation even relevant for the long haul? It doesn't seem that Rey, Finn, and Poe will have a part in SW storytelling after the ST, so then why didn't this trilogy really just focus on a last hurrah for the old guard? It is becoming just a confusing mish-mosh of the old and the new, with bad baton-passing both in the imaginary storylines and the real-world directors.

40 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

I don't disagree with anything you just said. OTOH, TFA was not enough to wreck it for me. TLJ was.

In essence, TFA was really a lot like Timothy Zahn's reset as well. It's still Rebels vs. Empire, it's just that our Rebel heroes now have the authority of the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant is the underdog. But the whole storyline is still basically Reb vs Imp. with all the same characters, structure, and political alliances.

The ST could certainly have done a better job of passing the baton from the old generation to the new. I mean, at this point, is the new generation even relevant for the long haul? It doesn't seem that Rey, Finn, and Poe will have a part in SW storytelling after the ST, so then why didn't this trilogy really just focus on a last hurrah for the old guard? It is becoming just a confusing mish-mosh of the old and the new, with bad baton-passing both in the imaginary storylines and the real-world directors.

Oh I very much get that too. I was really looking forward to TLJ, curious about where it was taking the ST, but it really doesn't feel like a middle act and with everything with how the OT characters are being portrayed I just don't really much care with what they are doing with them. I can see your point on Zahn's reset of sorts, but at least that was still set near the OT timeline wise and still felt like that part of the era, like the Rebels won the battle but still had to win the war after Endor. The current canon just sort of has the empire collapse really quickly, which I find poor if only for the limit that puts on authors for post Endor stories when they want to still feature the Rebellion vs Empire.

And, of I very much agree with you on that bit of the weird roles between the Resistance(or are they Rebels now?) and First Order, it would have been interesting to see how the First Order would try to destroy or drag down the New Republic but no that is all shown off screen in books or set years before the story being told leaving the audience to try and piece that together. I'm also not a huge fan of how these films sort of make it a requirement to read a number of the books to understand what is happening, I get it if it just adds substance to what is there rather than trying to explain away things or explain why certain characters did something (aka Phasma).

5 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

I don't disagree with anything you just said. OTOH, TFA was not enough to wreck it for me. TLJ was.

In essence, TFA was really a lot like Timothy Zahn's reset as well. It's still Rebels vs. Empire, it's just that our Rebel heroes now have the authority of the New Republic and the Imperial Remnant is the underdog. But the whole storyline is still basically Reb vs Imp. with all the same characters, structure, and political alliances.

The ST could certainly have done a better job of passing the baton from the old generation to the new. I mean, at this point, is the new generation even relevant for the long haul? It doesn't seem that Rey, Finn, and Poe will have a part in SW storytelling after the ST, so then why didn't this trilogy really just focus on a last hurrah for the old guard? It is becoming just a confusing mish-mosh of the old and the new, with bad baton-passing both in the imaginary storylines and the real-world directors.

Daisy already said she's not doing the next trilogy.

http://www.nme.com/news/film/daisy-ridley-wont-return-rey-next-star-wars-trilogy-2166562