2 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

What martially inclined Jedi struggle with trying to do Force stuff?

Pretty much all of the ones in Clone Wars. I lost count of the number of story plots that revolved around them having to deal with something without a lightsaber, and them having trouble figuring out what to do. They'd have to have vision quests to get revelation, or have their hand held by a mentor character because they were too obtuse, and kept going at everything directly. I mean heck, even Luke had this issue in Empire before he'd even started training really, with just a taste of the Force. "Always as he looked away, to the horizon, never his mind on where he was, what he was doing."

5 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

The real issue here is that Force wizardry, if used properly, would likely break any plausible scenario Lucas could come up with.

The game mechanic stuff that other people not-Lucas came up with? Sure, without question. But they aren't trying to accomplish the same goal. Gaming systems are built around an ever escalating power scale, to provide challenges and hurdles for those who are playing it. Movies don't do that. They're not even remotely the same thing, so saying that game mechanics would break a film scenario, is an accurate statement, but an ultimately fruitless one.

7 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

The Jedi don’t do what they could, even within the limits they impose on themselves. The Sith for sure don’t do what they could, even accounting for secrecy. What they do instead is preferably flashy, to make for exciting action sequences.

Correct, the movies are built around telling a story, establishing drama and tension, and structuring a narrative in a limited run-time. Games don't operate like that at all. I'm not really sure what this has to do with anything though? I mean I get what your saying, but I don't see what relevance it has to the topic of "which 3 jedi specs do you like?"

3 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

1) Pretty much all of the ones in Clone Wars. I lost count of the number of story plots that revolved around them having to deal with something without a lightsaber, and them having trouble figuring out what to do. They'd have to have vision quests to get revelation, or have their hand held by a mentor character because they were too obtuse, and kept going at everything directly. I mean heck, even Luke had this issue in Empire before he'd even started training really, with just a taste of the Force. "Always as he looked away, to the horizon, never his mind on where he was, what he was doing."

2) Correct, the movies are built around telling a story, establishing drama and tension, and structuring a narrative in a limited run-time. Games don't operate like that at all. I'm not really sure what this has to do with anything though? I mean I get what your saying, but I don't see what relevance it has to the topic of "which 3 jedi specs do you like?"

1) Luke barely had any real lightsaber training yet managed to hold himself against Vader by RotJ. Movie logic. Characters get to do what the scenario requires, and that doesn’t always make sense. And not realizing what they could do with the Force is exactly what I’m pointing out is the problem. It’s not a lack of skill, it’s not being able to think of an appropriate use for the skill. Luke’s illusion in TLJ is an excellent example of a Jedi actually using the Force effectively, as are Obi-wan’s Jedi mind tricks, but those are too few and far between when we see the Old Republic Jedi masters at work.

2) You realize this is a game based on those movies, right? I don’t like the concept of certain specs because to me (and feel free to disagree) they don’t reflect those movies. Liking the ones that do seems pertinent to the topic at hand.

1 hour ago, nameless ronin said:

2) You realize this is a game based on those movies, right?

NO?! REALLY?!?! What are they called?! I should probably watch them!

10 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Why shouldn't focusing on being good at lightsaber training mean you aren't as powerful with the Force? We see it repeated all the time in the films and tv shows. The more martially oriented jedi really struggle with trying to do actual Force stuff. Because they've been too busy swinging around glow sticks. They have to go on a whole vision quest and everything to actually tap into the stronger aspects of Force ability.

It's like saying it bugs you that spending years learning how to fence means you haven't been studying on how to use magic, because you've been spending all your time fencing. But somehow learning to fence should let you be better at magic? (aka, there should be a FR boost in the saber trees).

I think it makes perfect sense that the saber trees don't improve your FR rating, except for the least offensive tree of all of them. Lightsabers are insanely deadly in this system. Having multiple saber trees that lets you ginsu blender everyone in Engaged range, AND also give you more Force pips to trigger powers (assuming you bought any upgrades), is very unbalancing.

As a counterpoint there were swordmage and bladesinger classes in D&D 4e. I guess niman-disciple and sentry and armorer and arbiter and padawan survivor are kind of like that, especially niman-disciple... draw closer and force assault are pretty darn useful. So while I agree that the current system works, I don't agree that it's far from what nameless ronin is complaining it's not. A martial artist, padawan survivor, sentry would be pretty good without having any of the 6 (soon to be 7) core lightsaber specs, with a force rating of ONLY 3. That said I am kind of hoping but not expecting vapaad to have a force rating talent.

10 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Why shouldn't focusing on being good at lightsaber training mean you aren't as powerful with the Force? We see it repeated all the time in the films and tv shows. The more martially oriented jedi really struggle with trying to do actual Force stuff. Because they've been too busy swinging around glow sticks. They have to go on a whole vision quest and everything to actually tap into the stronger aspects of Force ability.

It's like saying it bugs you that spending years learning how to fence means you haven't been studying on how to use magic, because you've been spending all your time fencing. But somehow learning to fence should let you be better at magic? (aka, there should be a FR boost in the saber trees).

I think it makes perfect sense that the saber trees don't improve your FR rating, except for the least offensive tree of all of them. Lightsabers are insanely deadly in this system. Having multiple saber trees that lets you ginsu blender everyone in Engaged range, AND also give you more Force pips to trigger powers (assuming you bought any upgrades), is very unbalancing.

As a counterpoint there were swordmage and bladesinger classes in D&D 4e. I guess niman-disciple and sentry and armorer and arbiter and padawan survivor are kind of like that, especially niman-disciple... draw closer and force assault are pretty darn useful. So while I agree that the current system works, I don't agree that it's far from what nameless ronin is complaining it's not. A martial artist, padawan survivor, sentry would be pretty good without having any of the 6 (soon to be 7) core lightsaber specs, with a force rating of ONLY 3. That said I am kind of hoping but not expecting vapaad to have a force rating talent.

3 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

As a counterpoint there were swordmage and bladesinger classes in D&D 4e. I guess niman-disciple and sentry and armorer and arbiter and padawan survivor are kind of like that, especially niman-disciple... draw closer and force assault are pretty darn useful. So while I agree that the current system works, I don't agree that it's far from what nameless ronin is complaining it's not. A martial artist, padawan survivor, sentry would be pretty good without having any of the 6 (soon to be 7) core lightsaber specs, with a force rating of ONLY 3. That said I am kind of hoping but not expecting vapaad to have a force rating talent.

Sure, my only point is that we don't actually see the Force users who spend most of their time using a saber, using Force powers. The saber is the more flashy, dramatic, and visually engaging power that is synonymous with being a Jedi. But if you are good at that, you haven't been spending a lot of time actually doing Force related stuff. We know this because those Jedi hardly ever actually use their Force powers on anything significant. They might Move a droid or two, or get a plothook, I mean Force Vision to send them to the next story point, but the Jedi who were all about cutting things up with a saber, weren't doing things like Moving high silhouette objects, or healing people, or using Battle Meditation, etc. They were always about that saber, first response, last response. So the idea that the trees that make you good at using a saber, don't also make you good at being a Force user , seems fitting to me.

42 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

Sure, my only point is that we don't actually see the Force users who spend most of their time using a saber, using Force powers. The saber is the more flashy, dramatic, and visually engaging power that is synonymous with being a Jedi. But if you are good at that, you haven't been spending a lot of time actually doing Force related stuff. We know this because those Jedi hardly ever actually use their Force powers on anything significant. They might Move a droid or two, or get a plothook, I mean Force Vision to send them to the next story point, but the Jedi who were all about cutting things up with a saber, weren't doing things like Moving high silhouette objects, or healing people, or using Battle Meditation, etc. They were always about that saber, first response, last response. So the idea that the trees that make you good at using a saber, don't also make you good at being a Force user , seems fitting to me.

Yoda

Just now, EliasWindrider said:

Yoda

You do understand what the word "hardly" means right? It implies not 100%, meaning there is always an example here and there that doesn't disprove the statement. And yes, Yoda used his saber twice, most people thought it was pretty dumb, citing things like "why isn't he just using the Force? It's the more powerful weapon anyway." And the lightsaber wasn't his first answer to every problem, like it was for those like Anakin, Asohka, Obi-Wan in the prequels, and in the Clone Wars (though he did begin to shift during that series into a less martial, more Old Mentor type role, but in his prime, it was all about the saber). Etc etc.

You know what, why are we even debating this, I don't really care if you disagree with me on this point, and by now it's derailed the thread entirely, so I'm ending it here. Have your opinion however you wish.

Good man. Ok so back to the original topic... Besides the mechanics of it all what fluff goes along with your spec choices?

7 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

As a counterpoint there were swordmage and bladesinger classes in D&D 4e. I guess niman-disciple and sentry and armorer and arbiter and padawan survivor are kind of like that, especially niman-disciple... draw closer and force assault are pretty darn useful. So while I agree that the current system works, I don't agree that it's far from what nameless ronin is complaining it's not. A martial artist, padawan survivor, sentry would be pretty good without having any of the 6 (soon to be 7) core lightsaber specs, with a force rating of ONLY 3. That said I am kind of hoping but not expecting vapaad to have a force rating talent.

My issues with the LS specs actually run a bit deeper than merely the lack of FR talents, but in large part the same goes for a fair number of the non-Force specs too - it just gets more egregious with the Force specs since Force users spend XP on Force powers too. I like having a versatile skill set. Careers and specs that are limited in that regard are unappealing to me, careers and specs that allow me to be above average in up to a handful of useful qualities and contribute in different ways on the other hand are the ones I like (for those who care: this is mostly a game balance consideration, not even one based on how I’d want the mechanics to reflect the movies).

Let’s take a look at Niman: decent lightsaber tree, FR increase + Discipline as a career skill, two talents dealing with manipulation skills, and Leadership and Negotiation as career skills as well. Stick some Force powers - for which you get to increase your FR - in there, particularly ones that help with the interpersonal skills or Move (to maximize Force Assault) and you have a character who is useful in combat, can also deal with people (including the other PCs) well by using his words, and is strong in the Force. Sentry is similar, though obviously the career skills have a completely different focus.

Compare with Soresu: the entire spec is devoted to (defensive, aside from two 25-XP talents, one if which is limited by your FR) combat and by and large so are the career skills. No FR talent, so Force power proficiency is limited. Makashi is similar, but has a more rounded career skill set.

Compare with Ataru: spec largely devoted to combat, but works both defensively and offensively (and Dodge can be useful outside combat too; career skill selection is great, with Piloting, Ranged, Survival and the Athletics/Coordination combo. No FR talent. Shii-Cho is similar, but with a much less rounded career skill set.

Compare to Shien: largely combat-oriented spec, mostly defensive with a couple offensive talents thrown in (two talents limited by FR). The skill selection is what makes the Sentinel career my favourite, so definitely no complaints there. No FR talent.

So, if it isn’t clear by now: the specs I prefer are those that give me the best chance at being useful throughout an entire campaign and in different situations. That puts the ones that give lightsaber proficiency but aren’t built around a specific form squarely at the top of the list, and the lightsaber form ones with combat career skill sets squarely at the bottom.

@TheShard : fluff-wise, I tend to stay away from the more explicit Jedi types. We play mostly in the Rebellion era or shortly after, so for me it would be jarring to play a character that waves a lightsaber around all the time or uses conspicuous Force powers every 5 minutes. That’s definitely a personal preference, I understand (and don’t mind) that others feel differently. Either way, that points me towards Sentinel specs first and foremost, with the different Pilot specs probably next in line.

Nice explanation! I'm foaming for ideas here to play an explicit jedi as its an njo campaign.

I had a seer sentry niman i was gonna play but i use him in a pbp and was gonna use it again but fellow player @Cartergame nixed my double upping

YEAH, because we're STILL Playing the PBP! You can STILL play a Sentry Niman Seer... You can even make him a Polis Masson(sp?) from the same family as Morl...

Just DON'T make him the EXACT Same character with the exact same backstory and exact same NAME from the other campaign! That's confusing and weird...

Now, I for one am looking forward to seeing what combos you come up with in this new Campaign because you always have such AMAZING and ORIGINAL ideas that are sure to blow everyone out of the water with your Creativity and Uniqueness!

Will your new character be Nature Oriented and focused on Mastery of the Force? Will he be a Deathstick wielding POWERHOUSE? Will he be a Battle Hardened Warrior of Space, Sea, & Sky? Will he be a Face man who has mastered all forms of Social Combat? Or, will he be the Ultimate Fixer who can find anyone and build anything in the seedy underworld that runs so much of the Star Wars Galaxy?

I'm just giving you ****!

But it seriously threw me for a loop... I'm totally blanking on ideas!

On 19.3.2018 at 8:30 PM, DaverWattra said:

Favorite defensive/Force-focused combo:

Niman Disciple + Protector + (either Sage for max Force power, or Arbiter for some extra lightsaber abilities + FR, or Soresu Defender for Supreme Parry 10).

Favorite offensive lightsaber attack combo:

Ataru Striker + (Sage or Hermit) + Niman Disciple -- with Parry 8, Reflect 7, FR 4 and Saber Swarm, you will carve up the enemy like a hot knife through butter while protecting yourself very well

I find that whether it's fun or not depends mostly on how good a job the player and GM can both do in coming up with cool results of advantage and triumph. If either party falls short, lightsaber fights can be quite dull. If both are on the ball, it can be spectacular and cinematic.

How is it possible to reach those Parry values?

I end up with Parry 8 for Niman + Protector + Soresu, and Parry 6 / Reflect 5 for Ataru + (Sage or Hermit) + Niman.

Always 2 Parry Talents less than you. What am I missing?

1 hour ago, TheShard said:

Nice explanation! I'm foaming for ideas here to play an explicit jedi as its an njo campaign.

I had a seer sentry niman i was gonna play but i use him in a pbp and was gonna use it again but fellow player @Cartergame nixed my double upping

Explicit in what way? Start with the character, then look for the build that fits. That always works better for me than starting with mechanics. What role would he play in the new Order? Ambassador/Politician? Guardian? Investigator? Scholar/lore seeker? Pacifist or ok with occasional (justified) violence? Traditionalist or Force rebel? Paragon of the Light Side, “grey” or even borderline Dark Side?

27 minutes ago, Rogues Rule said:

How is it possible to reach those Parry values?

I end up with Parry 8 for Niman + Protector + Soresu, and Parry 6 / Reflect 5 for Ataru + (Sage or Hermit) + Niman.

Always 2 Parry Talents less than you. What am I missing?

@DaverWattra counts Improved Parry and Supreme Parry as ranks in Parry as well, you don’t. At least that’s what I suspect. FWIW, I use the same interpretation you do since Improved and Supreme Parry are not ranked talents.

Well lore seeker is a definite possibilty but it'll have to be different then my other lorefinder which is like a nerdy indiana jones...

I'm thinking classic warrior/poet/philospher thing going, other people are doing atypical force users a a brawler and a doctor/ shadow/sentry build

(Im not so much worried about doubling up specs as long as the concept is different)

Looking at being the main guy for classic jedi-ness... However with more interesting flavor ...

17 minutes ago, TheShard said:

Well lore seeker is a definite possibilty but it'll have to be different then my other lorefinder which is like a nerdy indiana jones...

I'm thinking classic warrior/poet/philospher thing going, other people are doing atypical force users a a brawler and a doctor/ shadow/sentry build

(Im not so much worried about doubling up specs as long as the concept is different)

Sounds like a Mystic, more or less. Seer and Makashi certainly fit. Those cover the classic Jedi concept, third spec would probably be something relating to your actual role in the Order.

On 19/03/2018 at 5:05 PM, SithArissa said:

Makashi + Niman + Sentry. Like @awayputurwpn may change once the new books come out.

23 hours ago, TheShard said:

If you've listed 3 specs but no explanation, please flesh out your reasoning for me!

So since your Presence is also your saber stat you'll want it to be high which also improves your out of combat capabilities (charm, leadership, negotiation, cool) A lot of those also get automatic boost dice from sense emotions.

With all 3 of the trees maxed out you get Parry 10 and Reflect 7 and melee defence of 3 and 2 ranks of dodge, as well as both improved versions of parry and reflect.

Vigilance and stealth both get 2 automatic boost dice.

Force rating - 3.

Fear the Shadows - gives conflict but can be used to just end combat or never have it at all.

Improved saber throw - for ranged attacks.

Resist disarm - so you never lose your weapon to an enemy action.

Strain management - Have both intense presence and makishi flourish to regain strain for long fights.

1 hour ago, nameless ronin said:

@DaverWattra counts Improved Parry and Supreme Parry as ranks in Parry as well, you don’t. At least that’s what I suspect. FWIW, I use the same interpretation you do since Improved and Supreme Parry are not ranked talents.

I wasn't counting ranks, I was counting the amount of damage you can stop (so ranks +2). That's the convention in my group. Sorry for the confusion!

Niman + seer + emergent

For me it's the Armourer - Soresu Defender - Artisan.

I love playing defensive powerhouses with all the gadgets they can get their hands on.

A very close second is the Pathfinder - Hermit - Hunter for the "beastmaster" wilderness type.

Sage/Niman Disciple/Soresu Defender. FR4, plenty of Parry and Reflect, and some cool talent. It's my go-to 'generic Jedi build'

What's with all the love for Sentry in a 3 spec build? As a single spec --- pretty nice. But if you already have lightsaber on your skill list (e.g. from Niman), its just more Parry and Reflect with an FR boost. The Sentry talents are kind of meh.