My issue with Golden Rule on page 4 overriding the reminder text of Page 11 is that it makes keywords pretty irrelevant. If the RRG cleans up an issue with a keyword it doesn't matter because some out of date card states otherwise. There's really no reason to have this kind of exhaustive online glossary unless it contains the official version of the rules it references.

Golden Rules > RRG

Just because Impact has been designed to only work against Armor and the crit doesn't matter because Cover removes a die before Impact changes a die, does not mean you can start changing hits to crits on every attack. There may be a weapon in the future that tiggers off of a crit. Or FFG might give a unit Impact that works on Repuslor vehicles, or on a new unit type. This would be reflected on the units card and direct you on how to use it appropriately, and would explain by Impact in the RRG is so vague. They left it open to allow for several uses of Impact to be used, even though the only use now is against Armor.

Just now, LunarSol said:

My issue with Golden Rule on page 4 overriding the reminder text of Page 11 is that it makes keywords pretty irrelevant. If the RRG cleans up an issue with a keyword it doesn't matter because some out of date card states otherwise. There's really no reason to have this kind of exhaustive online glossary unless it contains the official version of the rules it references.

I don't care if you have an issue with the rules. If we are playing a game, we are both going to follow them.

Only skimmed through this but seems so confusing

2 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I don't care if you have an issue with the rules. If we are playing a game, we are both going to follow them.

K... that seemed... unnecessary.

I'm just commenting that Page 11 and Page 4 are at odds with each other. If reminder text literally overrides anything in the RRG the RRG loses a lot of value as a resource. I'm not trying to tell you you're playing it wrong, particularly since, as the game currently stands, we're both playing it the same way, I'm just saying a comprehensive rules reference that is neither comprehensive nor even necessarily binding is pretty worthless.

10 minutes ago, VAYASAN said:

Only skimmed through this but seems so confusing

It's really not. The issue is just that the attack sequence is very specifically laid out in such a way that the timing of when rules trigger matters a lot more than they appear when you just read them off the card. Crits bypass certain things, but not others in a way that can make Impact specifically not super obvious until it becomes apparent that it really only directly interacts with the Armor keyword.

What does Watson say?

7 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

K... that seemed... unnecessary.

I'm just commenting that Page 11 and Page 4 are at odds with each other. If reminder text literally overrides anything in the RRG the RRG loses a lot of value as a resource. I'm not trying to tell you you're playing it wrong, particularly since, as the game currently stands, we're both playing it the same way, I'm just saying a comprehensive rules reference that is neither comprehensive nor even necessarily binding is pretty worthless.

I'm pretty sure every game has components that over rule the RRG. It's standard practice. In Armada, you shoot then move, except for Demolisher which allows you to shoot after you move.

Either FFG forgot to state Impact only works against Armor, or they are going to allow Impact to be used against other keywords, in which case they want to leave the RRG open. In both cases, the rules have not been compromised and still provide the information required to play the game.

Regardless, people should be following the rules explicitly so they are creating legal armies. I can't tell you how many times I've played games where people misread the rules and thought they could do something when they actually can't. And their entire list hinges on that incorrect interaction.

24 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

It's really not. The issue is just that the attack sequence is very specifically laid out in such a way that the timing of when rules trigger matters a lot more than they appear when you just read them off the card. Crits bypass certain things, but not others in a way that can make Impact specifically not super obvious until it becomes apparent that it really only directly interacts with the Armor keyword.

Fair enough, I guess things will be clearer when I actually get he game in fairness

I'm making a distinction here based on the assumption that the RRG continues to contain all the keywords. Special rules themselves override rules all the time; that's pretty much the whole point, but if you're going to Keyword your rules and then include their full discription in an online reference, the point should be that that reference is the real explanation of the rule. If in the future a model is released with a version of Impact that doesn't require Armor to trigger just because the reminder text doesn't specify so and we start running around with Impact meaning multiple things that's just... madness.

22 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

It's really not. The issue is just that the attack sequence is very specifically laid out in such a way that the timing of when rules trigger matters a lot more than they appear when you just read them off the card. Crits bypass certain things, but not others in a way that can make Impact specifically not super obvious until it becomes apparent that it really only directly interacts with the Armor keyword.

As a brand new gamer, this is where I had 100s of questions during my demo. Learn To Play says this ... full rules says this ... card says this ... weapon does this ... how does this stack and aggregate

There is what is intuitive and, logically, makes sense. Intent and 90% of the time I would anticipate being able to work through that with another person

However, there is black & white in the written word ... literal ... verbatim ... and 10% of the time, which is based off some of the arguments within the FB feed, I anticipate things being awkward. THE CARD SAYS ...

My job is argumentative enough and holding out hope I rarely run into the 10% of things

I would think these types of instances would be collected and revisited in a rules update, no?

Any text in parenthesis is considered reminder text. Per RRG reminder text is NOT considered rules text and a player should refer to the RRG for the full rules text of the keyword.

RRG pg 11

Abilities on unit cards are presented as keywords. The front of each unit card provides reminder text for that unit’s unit keywords. The back of each unit card provides reminder text for that unit’s weapon keywords. » Reminder text is not an exhaustive description of the rules for a keyword. If a player has questions about how a keyword works, that player should refer to that keyword’s glossary entry.

44 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I'm pretty sure every game has components that over rule the RRG. It's standard practice. In Armada, you shoot then move, except for Demolisher which allows you to shoot after you move.

Either FFG forgot to state Impact only works against Armor, or they are going to allow Impact to be used against other keywords, in which case they want to leave the RRG open. In both cases, the rules have not been compromised and still provide the information required to play the game.

Regardless, people should be following the rules explicitly so they are creating legal armies. I can't tell you how many times I've played games where people misread the rules and thought they could do something when they actually can't. And their entire list hinges on that incorrect interaction.

Except reminder text should NOT be considered part of card text -- it is simply there to help a player -- it is NOT intended to be rules text.

4 minutes ago, pstalker said:

Any text in parenthesis is considered reminder text. Per RRG reminder text is NOT considered rules text and a player should refer to the RRG for the full rules text of the keyword.

RRG pg 11

Abilities on unit cards are presented as keywords. The front of each unit card provides reminder text for that unit’s unit keywords. The back of each unit card provides reminder text for that unit’s weapon keywords. » Reminder text is not an exhaustive description of the rules for a keyword. If a player has questions about how a keyword works, that player should refer to that keyword’s glossary entry.

Yeah, this was addressed earlier. It doesn't say reminder text doesn't count at all. It says reminder text is not exhaustive. Meaning, take this text and then go elsewhere to find the rest of the rule.

I think this instance was an oversight and the reminder text for Impact is supposed to be in the glossary entry. As @LunarSol said, we don't want different versions of a keyword running around as that would defeat the purpose of keywords.

39 minutes ago, pstalker said:

Except reminder text should NOT be considered part of card text -- it is simply there to help a player -- it is NOT intended to be rules text.

Show me where the rules say the card text is not intended to be rules and I'll agree. Until then, the Golden Rules take precedence and Impact only works against Armor.

37 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Show me where the rules say the card text is not intended to be rules and I'll agree. Until then, the Golden Rules take precedence and Impact only works against Armor.

In the part that I already highlighted:

If a player has questions about how a keyword works, that player should refer to that keyword’s glossary entry.

It specifically states that a player should refer to the RRG when questions arise about how a keyword works. If a player has a question about how IMPACT works they are told to reference the rule in the RRG.

This is VERY consistent with how every other FFG game works with regards to reminder text. In fact there are examples in other FFG games where reminder text has actually been INCORRECT (i.e the "Guardian" reminder text on some Star Wars: Destiny cards) and the response from FFG has alwyas been the same: reminder text is just that: REMINDER text. If it was intended to be rules text and part of the card ability it would not be in parenthesis.

1 hour ago, nashjaee said:

Yeah, this was addressed earlier. It doesn't say reminder text doesn't count at all. It says reminder text is not exhaustive. Meaning, take this text and then go elsewhere to find the rest of the rule.

I think this instance was an oversight and the reminder text for Impact is supposed to be in the glossary entry. As @LunarSol said, we don't want different versions of a keyword running around as that would defeat the purpose of keywords.

You are reading a lot of meaning into that by saying you are to " take this text and then go elsewhere to find the rest of the rule." ESPECIALLY considering the next line SPECIFICALLY states "If a player has questions about how a keyword works, that player should refer to that keyword’s glossary entry."

The bullet under the "Keywords" entry also expands on this:

"The reminder text is not an exhaustive description of the rules for a keyword. Rather, it is there to help players remember how and when to resolve each keyword..."

It is just simple reminder text -- that is why it is called REMINDER text.

So, to sum up, Golden Rule #2 on RRG pg.4 doesn't apply to REMINDER TEXT on a card per the Abilities entry on RRG pg.11. Therefore, per the Impact X entry on RRG pg.30 it is not restricted to attacks against units with the Armor keyword.

However, per the Attack entry on RRG pg.14, step 5 is Apply Dodge & Cover which will cancel hits before the Impact keyword is applied in Step 6. Modify Attack Dice. Also, per Step 6 the Attacker can apply the Impact effect to change a hit to a crit before the Defender can use the Armor keyword to cancel all hits.

Hopefully that helps clear everything up? Did I miss anything in that order of operations?

We're straying into pedantry a bit at this point. Due to timing of effects Impact only matters against Armor. @NeonWolf and @TerrorScream have already pointed this out.

43 minutes ago, pstalker said:

You are reading a lot of meaning into that by saying you are to " take this text and then go elsewhere to find the rest of the rule." ESPECIALLY considering the next line SPECIFICALLY states "If a player has questions about how a keyword works, that player should refer to that keyword’s glossary entry."

The bullet under the "Keywords" entry also expands on this:

"The reminder text is not an exhaustive description of the rules for a keyword. Rather, it is there to help players remember how and when to resolve each keyword..."

It is just simple reminder text -- that is why it is called REMINDER text.

The only meaning I'm applying is what is actually there in the text. It seems you are trying to apply something ("ignore reminder text") that just doesn't exist. Or, at least, I'm not seeing it. You're gonna have to present why this is the case. So far, I haven't seen anything that implies reminder text should be ignored.

Edit: Actually, it's not quite pedantic yet. The Guardian keyword doesn't work on crits, so these 2 interpretations we have will have an impact (see what I did there? ).

44 minutes ago, pstalker said:

In the part that I already highlighted:

If a player has questions about how a keyword works, that player should refer to that keyword’s glossary entry.

It specifically states that a player should refer to the RRG when questions arise about how a keyword works. If a player has a question about how IMPACT works they are told to reference the rule in the RRG.

This is VERY consistent with how every other FFG game works with regards to reminder text. In fact there are examples in other FFG games where reminder text has actually been INCORRECT (i.e the "Guardian" reminder text on some Star Wars: Destiny cards) and the response from FFG has alwyas been the same: reminder text is just that: REMINDER text. If it was intended to be rules text and part of the card ability it would not be in parenthesis.

Does that state card text don't count as rules?

No. It says if you have a question, refer to the keyword entry.

10 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

So, to sum up, Golden Rule #2 on RRG pg.4 doesn't apply to REMINDER TEXT on a card per the Abilities entry on RRG pg.11. Therefore, per the Impact X entry on RRG pg.30 it is not restricted to attacks against units with the Armor keyword.

However, per the Attack entry on RRG pg.14, step 5 is Apply Dodge & Cover which will cancel hits before the Impact keyword is applied in Step 6. Modify Attack Dice. Also, per Step 6 the Attacker can apply the Impact effect to change a hit to a crit before the Defender can use the Armor keyword to cancel all hits.

Hopefully that helps clear everything up? Did I miss anything in that order of operations?

Golden Rule still applies to all card text.

18 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

So, to sum up, Golden Rule #2 on RRG pg.4 doesn't apply to REMINDER TEXT on a card per the Abilities entry on RRG pg.11. Therefore, per the Impact X entry on RRG pg.30 it is not restricted to attacks against units with the Armor keyword.

However, per the Attack entry on RRG pg.14, step 5 is Apply Dodge & Cover which will cancel hits before the Impact keyword is applied in Step 6. Modify Attack Dice. Also, per Step 6 the Attacker can apply the Impact effect to change a hit to a crit before the Defender can use the Armor keyword to cancel all hits.

Hopefully that helps clear everything up? Did I miss anything in that order of operations?

Nobody is actually arguing about how the rules work. We're arguing how they could work if a special rule was added to a unit that modified what Crits did for attacks made by that unit.

I'm fairly certain the intent is for Impact to only apply to units with the Armor keyword. The Learn To Play, which is NOT contradicted by the Rules Reference Guide, states that Impact is applied when the opposing unit has Armor. Likewise, the card itself specifies this timing and is not contradicted by the RRG either. Even if it is "Reminder Text" it is not stating a rule that is inconsistent with either documents. Several people have also noted that the keyword (currently) only matters when applied to armor anyway. The "Armor" notation has been consistent on all cards with Impact (that I've seen anyway). Even the RRG makes a note of Listing Impact and Armor together in the glossary. Even if we're assuming that the RRG glossary is the "end all, be all" for the rule, the glossary references applying the armor keyword in conjunction with impact.

That's right @LunarSol. Although, see my edit above. The Guardian keyword does have an interaction here.

15 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Does that state card text don't count as rules?

No. It says if you have a question, refer to the keyword entry.

Ok, fine then lets play by your rules.....

I have a question....."Can I use the IMPACT keyword on a target that does not have the ARMOR keyword?"

RRG tells me to answer that question I should refer to the Keyword as defined in the RRG......

RRG entry for "IMPACT X" says nothing about only applying the keyword to targets that have the ARMOR keyword.....

Therefore the text on the card which is just REMINDER text does NOT tell me how to apply the rules of the keyword...the RRG does that....