28 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Why are we making fun of people for losing?!

I get being engaged on the stream, or even going "WHYYYY?!" (like screaming at a football game). But making fun of people for losing? That's not cool whether it's on stream or not

Well, in this instance, it's a known streamer being tabled 100-0 by a 7 year old kid (see the Krayt thread for the pic!). It wasn't streamed. But it actually was background conversation at the Winnipeg regional a few weeks back, months later.

There's partisanship at this point. Where someone is either on your "team" or not. And if they're not, they're fair game for ridicule. I've seen Facebook posts dehumanizing opponents for being dumb (or of a certain skin colour), which would presumably not happen if that opponent was someone they actually knew.

I've seen it on streams, with people being "not nice" (code word for a word that is probably blocked here) to one of the two players until someone else chimed in that "no, not everyone is rooting for the same guy" which just led to more teasing and dog piling.

Us v Them is big thing and it's not getting better. It used to be about the pew-pews.

Eh, I still think answering calls while being (particularly on stream) is not a good idea for the game if we're pretending it's a competitive game.

Anyone else calling anyone else and there'd be a fury about it.

tornaments are toxic by nature. its a game about fun with toy spaceships.

people are getting waaay to into the winning aspect and not enough into the friendly enjoyment, sportsmanship, and play aspects

http://vttv.live/2018/03/19/statement-about-x-wing-finals/

Edit: I think having a policy in place before you stream about what will cause you to call a judge over is a good thing. It's their stream, so having something like this for the future is a good policy, even if I happen to disagree with it.

I feel like there should be a judge assigned to the final table of every event. Yes, I know you might have some hangar bay happening and people have questions. You can run that with one less judge while your TO or most knowledgeable judge pays attention to the final match.

If you're not just running the tournament solo (like two of the three Regionals I've been to this year), you should have someone on each of the semifinal matches as well.

3 minutes ago, pheaver said:

http://vttv.live/2018/03/19/statement-about-x-wing-finals/

Their statement is incorrect, in that in no way did I argue with the judge. They are just trying to make themselves look better. Pretty sad.

Do you mean you did not try to convince them of a point, or you did not get heated in doing so?

I said all of two sentences, roughly? "Hi Jeremy, can you put me on with the judge?" and "Hi, as a spectator of this match, I wanted to let you know that they missed the harpoon condition trigger. Ok, thanks," and then Jeremy hung up.

I was heated on the stream chat, because they specifically said in an earlier match that they would only get the judge if something large and game-altering came up (which is a fair call to make to not bother the streamed players on every little bump), and then when that exact thing happened, they didn't follow their own statement. I don't get heated with judges, they have a thankless job. Heck, I agree with his ruling that the players played too long without the harpooned condition, and they couldn't fix it at the current time.

Edit: And nevermind, they edited their statement to remove the offending statement, so now it's accurate. I personally don't agree with the stance, but I'm content that they have a clear process as to how they'll deal with similar situations in the future.

13 minutes ago, pheaver said:

http://vttv.live/2018/03/19/statement-about-x-wing-finals/

Their statement is incorrect, in that in no way did I argue with the judge. They are just trying to make themselves look better. Pretty sad.

It also keep spreading the terrible idea that "people shouldn't accept to be streamed because bad mean in the internet".

A freaking amount of games were streamed since the first one back in the 2014 or something. Afaik the only issues came the 2 times people got blatlantly cheating, the one time a random no one got mad at Duncan and yesterday when the streamers took the absurd decision of interfering the game by not telling the judge of a major game state mistake they were aware of.

Streams are awesome and good for the game. Sure, they impose more stress on the players (I played my whole top run at Tatooine on stream, I know what I'm talking about by first hand experience), but viewers noticing a game-altering error should be actually used as an example on why streams help games

21 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

...and yesterday when the streamers took the absurd decision of interfering the game by not telling the judge of a major game state mistake they were aware of.

Regardless of whether you feel it is absurd or not, it's their policy and that's their right to set it. If you don't like it, don't watch their streams. There's really not much more to say.

It seems streamed games is a real hot topic lately. At the recent Paris Grand Kotei for L5R (akin to a Nationals), in the top 4 match a game state violation at the end of turn 1 was missed by the two players and the judge at the table (a character remained in play when it should have been discarded). It was picked up by stream viewers and the information was eventually communicated to judges at the event. The TOs discussed it at length and decided to give the player who was advantaged a game loss, reversing the result of the match.
If it wasn't for the stream, this game state violation would have not been picked up and the player would have advanced to the final game. As you can imagine, this has become a hot button topic in L5R discussions, especially in the Discord channel (the official FFG L5R forums are very sleepy but I assure you, we are out there somewhere) so it is interesting to me as an XWing and L5R fan to see a similar situation crop up in Xwing so soon after.

If only there were floor rules to handle these types of situations! But that windmill isn't coming down, no matter how hard we tilt at it.

25 minutes ago, pheaver said:

If only there were floor rules to handle these types of situations! But that windmill isn't coming down, no matter how hard we tilt at it.

As you can imagine there was a clarion cry of people in the immediate conversations of "floor rules! floor rules!" and my response was along the lines of "Oh my sweet summer child, we have been calling for floor rules in Xwing for *years*. L5R will need to get in the line."

Yeah generally spectators are not supposed to interfere.

But with the whole dialgate last year it is still a touchy subject.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/249050-live-cheating-at-worlds/

6 hours ago, DragoonKainKatarn said:

Eh, I still think answering calls while being (particularly on stream) is not a good idea for the game if we're pretending it's a competitive game.

Anyone else calling anyone else and there'd be a fury about it.

New tactic: Prank calls on the final table.

“Is your opponents TIE silencer running away?”

”Yeah”

“Well you better slam and catch it!” *click*

So thanks @pheaver for chipping in - and glad that pretty much everyone here agrees that streamers should not interfere in matches directly ... I'm wondering what do you do, as a player, or spectator if you witness someone directly interfering in a match?

I guess the correct route is to inform the TO/marshall that you have seen someone break the tournament rules?

What we aren't agreeing upon is what "interfering" means: for me and many others it means not asking things like "did you use cm?" and not notifying a relevant rule mistake.

For others it means streamers should shut up and who cares if the game might be decided by the relevant rule mistake.

e: sorry, I'm out again

In the absence of floor rules, I think we need to take seriously the fact that no other organized competition in the world makes the rules the responsibility of the fans and commentators. Maybe the rest of the world has it wrong, but there is a much more significant burden of proof that fans and commentators influencing the game state in any way is in fact a good thing.

52 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

To be fair, the rules say „may inform a judge“, not have to.

That means a streamer can choose not to inform anyone and they are technically not wrong. I disagree with the decision and I think it is fair to voice that criticism. But they have the right not to act.

Yeah, as a spectator you can be technically right and not inform a judge. But since you can also be technically right and inform a judge, not doing so most of the times means you are interfering a game by consciently choosing to let the players keep going on with what technically is no longer a proper xwing game (since it had a game state violation).

What's better for a tournament? Having as many as possible games played following the xwing rules or having streamers (and any other kind of spectators) asked to never say anything even in the most blatant cases?

By myself I'm all for the former since very few things are worse than winning a game just to notice at the end that we wrong counted the damages, forgot a game changing crit or never triggered an Harpooned!

We are going to page 3 and counting and I have yet to read an argument in favor of having streamers and spectators not saying anything in such cases other than "eh but the rules doesn't say they have to..." or "eh but what about the games were mistakes happen without anyone noticing?" and both seem extremely poor argument to me.

In the first case, they have the right to not act, but this means they somehow value more their right not act than having a game played out by the rules. Could you imagine the final game of Worlds or of a SoS decided because two extremely tired players and an equally tired judge forgot a Blinded Pilot and everyone around them choose to not say anything? What would that means for the game? It would be so ridiculous that, in a similar situation, a well known and respected player like Heaver even chose to phone call the players!

Do I really need to comment on the second case? "We'd rather have a game decided by an unnoticed crit precisely as it would happen in the other 99% of games being played that round" is something we should be thriving to keep? Shouldn't we all make sure there are as less as possible games screwed by forgotten crits or similar stuff?

At least I'm releived by the knowledge that the large majority of the players I know would rather play in a cut were rules mistakes are promptly pointed out no matter by what source rather than having their own win tarnished by a potential game changing rule break

The guys from VTTV made a great point with their post.

4 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Yeah, as a spectator you can be technically right and not inform a judge. But since you can also be technically right and inform a judge, not doing so most of the times means you are interfering a game by consciently choosing to let the players keep going on with what technically is no longer a proper xwing game (since it had a game state violation).

Exactly. Choosing not to inform a judge when you know of a game-state violation is absurd.

Only been playing the game for a year, but this whole thing has been very interesting to watch unfold. And I've seen a lot of comparisons on FB and such, about how folks watching Golf have called in over rules violations over the years, but they too have tried to change all of that just this past December. They changed it to, “Let’s leave the rules and the administration of the event to the players and to those responsible for running the tournament.”

I started watching streams with last year's Worlds (Dialgate), so it's been an interesting year to begin playing (and watching) X Wing. It seems to never been boring, that's for sure.

e: sorry, I'm out again

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The main problem in my opinion is the impartiality. And the only solutions are to never or to always inform a judge. Their statement tries to get an inbetween, and that is problematic.

...and then what happens when a streamer at a Worlds or an SOS calls out one game state violation, but misses another; are there going to be complaints about the game being tainted by streamer who is suspected of not being impartial? If you have 300 eyes rallying against Ghost + Fenn in twitch chat, and nobody calls the judge to point out a game state violation because "they don't have to" are we now going to call that win "tarnished"?

Honestly, I would prefer that a game that has both opponents and the judge satisfied with the current game state play on to completion barring blatant cheating (ex. dial-gate) and would not consider a missed critical or such to taint the results of a game. I can't tell you how many games where an opponent or I have forgotten about a "Damaged Engine" or how many times I've seen in-person or on youtube/twitch someone miss similar issues and the game play on to completion and everyone is fine and dandy. I hardly doubt that 99% of games being played at a large tournament are played without any game state violations (this could be an interesting project to record all games and test).

Stuff gets missed all the time, its part of the game, as long as people try their best and its not someone purposely cheating the game plays on.

e: sorry, I'm out again