Something I've noticed more over the last few months of being involved in this community is an increasing instance of streamers, or people watching streamed games interfering in those games where they see a perceived rules infringement. Between streamers running to the table to tell players that they have forgotten a crit to stream viewers calling players on final table at Canadian nationals ...

The rules on interference in a game are pretty clear

Quote

‘A spectator is any individual at a tournament not actively engaging in another role. Spectators must not disturb an ongoing game, and cannot provide any input or assistance to players during their games. If a spectator believes they have witnessed a breach of the rules in a game they are watching, other than a missed opportunity, he or she may bring it to the attention of a leader.’

If you are running, or watching a stream, you are a spectator.

If you disturb an ongoing game, you are breaking the tournament rules.

They can (and IMO should) inform the judges, not more, but also not less.

1 hour ago, Dreadai said:

If a spectator believes they have witnessed a breach of the rules in a game they are watching, other than a missed opportunity, he or she may bring it to the attention of a leader.’

That's the key point.

Anyone witnessing a game state violation, a rule break and any non-optional thing not triggered, can and probably should inform a judge.

We'd rather have interruptions in games, especially finals, if it means they are played by the rules.

Would you imagine a world final decided because 2 tired players and an equally tired judge don't notice an Harpooned! Trigger? That would sucks for xwing.

In the end the missed trigger didn't matter in the specific case of Canadian national, but for the game it's far better to listen to stream chat rather than willingly ignore it in such cases

Doesn’t need a rules update, the spectator rules apply. Now, phoning a player mid game while you’re watching a stream? That’s something else...

The rules are fine. Streamers need to follow them.

2 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

Doesn’t need a rules update, the spectator rules apply. Now, phoning a player mid game while you’re watching a stream? That’s something else...

Nope, that's the same. A spectator interfering. Doing it by phone is just the same as doing it in person. Just a bit more stealthy.

Just now, thespaceinvader said:

The rules are fine. Streamers need to follow them.

Nope, that's the same. A spectator interfering. Doing it by phone is just the same as doing it in person. Just a bit more stealthy.

I was suggesting the person concerned should’ve known better.

I'm not sure how many of you posting here were watching it live yesterday: heaver did the right thing phoning and asking to speak with a judge.

It was an absolute nonsense that no one from the stream, despite noticing the game state violation, were informing the judge.

Unintentional mistakes are bound to happen, players and judges are humans after all. If they fail to notice a major not optional trigger, it's spectators duty to inform a judge about it.

We are playing xwing after all, it has rules you expect to be enforced, especially at the final game of national tournament.

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

That's the key point.

Anyone witnessing a game state violation, a rule break and any non-optional thing not triggered, can and probably should inform a judge.

We'd rather have interruptions in games, especially finals, if it means they are played by the rules.

Would you imagine a world final decided because 2 tired players and an equally tired judge don't notice an Harpooned! Trigger? That would sucks for xwing.

In the end the missed trigger didn't matter in the specific case of Canadian national, but for the game it's far better to listen to stream chat rather than willingly ignore it in such cases

I think the thing here is that you should inform a judge ... not directly interfere in the game. If there is a judge sitting by the stream table, you can tell them, it is then their discretion whether the game state can be rolled back, or the mistake corrected. But yelling across the room to the stream table, or directly interfering in the game is the activity that we do see from some streams.

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

I'm not sure how many of you posting here were watching it live yesterday: heaver did the right thing phoning and asking to speak with a judge.

It was an absolute nonsense that no one from the stream, despite noticing the game state violation, were informing the judge.

Unintentional mistakes are bound to happen, players and judges are humans after all. If they fail to notice a major not optional trigger, it's spectators duty to inform a judge about it.

We are playing xwing after all, it has rules you expect to be enforced, especially at the final game of national tournament.

From context I'd understood that the phone call in question was from a spectator to a player. Phoning a judge is fine, just as spectators notifying a judge is fine.

5 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

I think the thing here is that you should inform a judge ... not directly interfere in the game. If there is a judge sitting by the stream table, you can tell them, it is then their discretion whether the game state can be rolled back, or the mistake corrected. But yelling across the room to the stream table, or directly interfering in the game is the activity that we do see from some streams.

No one yelled or interfered the game.

It was a game state violation not noticed by neither the players, the judge nor the spectators on site.

But it was immediately called out on the stream chat. The streamers however preferred to not tell it to judges because they'd rather prefer have a major game state violation rather than considering the watchers legitimate spectators.

Then, after the whole chat (which included many top players and experienced judges) kept trying to convince the streamers to pass the info to the judge, Paul Heaver resorted to phone call one of the player, asking him to let heaver speak to the judge.

Sadly, it was arguably a bit too late to reset the board (but it could still have been doable imo).

Making sure that game state is kept well and that's not rules violation is a burden upon both players. All xwing games should be played by the same rules, when players or judges fail to do that (which is perfectly understandable, we are all humans and far from perfection), spectators can and should point it out.

It isn't interfering. Interfering it's acknowledge there has been a mistake and not say anything. That's what the streamers chose to do

4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

From context I'd understood that the phone call in question was from a spectator to a player. Phoning a judge is fine, just as spectators notifying a judge is fine.

On the other hand, I don't remember of any circumstance of a player involved in such a situation going on record to say that he disapproved of a spectator correcting an obvious mistake. Most players want to win or lose fair and square, and seem to be grateful when people point out stuff like that.

Additionally, running to get a judge might result in the game state changing to a point the mistake is harder or downright impossible to revert.

You are focusing on a specific instance here @Sunitsa - during the regionals season, and at System Opens, GSP for example has interfered directly in a number of games, yelling time checks, reminding of crits, missed stress tokens and so on ... directly to the table, not via a judge. On at least one occasion, that I saw live, this had a material impact on the outcome of the game.

We aren't talking in specifics about the canada nationals final ... but in general.

I guess I would like streamers, particularly those who have high followings / view rates to actually follow the tournament rules rather than holding themselves apart and above them.

"If a spectator believes they have witnessed a breach of the rules in a game they are watching, other than a missed opportunity, he or she may bring it to the attention of a leader.’"

The streamers are not required to bring anything to the attention of the judge. Especially if they did not notice it themselves. If streamers start calling over a judge everytime twitch chat goes crazy, there will be a problem.

If, as a stream viewer, you see an infraction and know the judges phone number, have at it. If it requires you to phone one of the players in the midst of the game, you are interfering with the game. You would never do that in person, therefore you shouldn't do it over the phone.

12 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

On the other hand, I don't remember of any circumstance of a player involved in such a situation going on record to say that he disapproved of a spectator correcting an obvious mistake. Most players want to win or lose fair and square, and seem to be grateful when people point out stuff like that.

Additionally, running to get a judge might result in the game state changing to a point the mistake is harder or downright impossible to revert.

This is a fair observation.

Lets think about top 16 ... 1 game is under scrutiny by 350 twitch viewers on stream, a table judge and 2 players. Everything about that game is perfect, clean and the game state is maintained.

There are 7 other tables where the only thing keeping things straight are the two players, and maybe a handful of distracted viewers. We aren't playing a computer game, or VR simulation. Arcs move, ships are bumped. It is a game of fine margins, but there is human error, and template variance to consider ... how do we normally deal with these changes to game state if they are noticed a phase or two later?

Players who are not subject to 300+ pairs of eyes constantly obsessively checking the game state have a distinct and material advantage to people playing on stream. The animalistic pack mentality of the twitch chat will soon (if not already) start to have a detrimental impact on the number of people willing to play on stream.

Imagine if someone playing top table at a major event (System open, worlds, Euros or Gencon) just flat refused to be streamed because twitch chat are ***** ... what do you do then?

it's about the finals of the Canadian Nationals? Where a) Quickdraw was Harpooned, but forgot to trigger the condition when she received a critical. b) in the next turn, Quickdraw dies, and forgot to trigger the condition (the splash damage). c) Late in the game, Miranda was target locked by Omega Leader, but still used C3PO.

I mean, it was a final of a National Venue. Or maybe they (casters and judge) didn't care enough, after all, it was a non-canadian final, between two brothers. They were bloody **** salty.

2 minutes ago, DicesonFire said:

I mean, it was a final of a National Venue. Or maybe they (casters and judge) didn't care enough, after all, it was a non-canadian final, between two brothers. They were bloody **** salty.

The casters said at the start of the weekend that they were not going to interfere in any games, and that it was down to the players to maintain the game state.

They made that decision, and stuck to it. Props to them I say.

yeah, its better to keep consistency than do the right thing.
also, and about the judge? or any other spectator there? they made the vows too?

@Sunitsa you need to be clear that the rules say that a spectator MAY inform a judge. VTTV had repeatedly made clear that their stance was that they would not do so. That's their call to make and entirely within the rules for them to do so - I respect that they made their stance known well in advance and then stuck to it, where other streamers have been seen to decide when they want to interfere based on whether it's their mates playing or not.

8 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

Players who are not subject to 300+ pairs of eyes constantly obsessively checking the game state have a distinct and material advantage to people playing on stream.

The only way one would see this as an advantage as opposed to an unfortunate occurrence is if he was already planning to take advantage of sloppy play and/or cheat. In this case, the possibility to ask not to be streamed is already there.

3 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

The casters said at the start of the weekend that they were not going to interfere in any games, and that it was down to the players to maintain the game state.

They made that decision, and stuck to it. Props to them I say.

I actually heard them say that they weren't going to interfere unless its a game-changing or game deciding type of game-state issue, at which point they'd get the judge. That happened and they didn't get the judge. I just don't understand why on earth they would refuse to tell the judge. What can it hurt to pull the judge aside and tell them? What reason could you possibly have to watch the game state get wrecked, have people point it out, and decide to not tell a judge?

2 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

The only way one would see this as an advantage as opposed to an unfortunate occurrence is if he was already planning to take advantage of sloppy play and/or cheat. In this case, the possibility to ask not to be streamed is already there.

Wow - you've got a really perverse worldview there ... streams cause sloppy play, they cause nerves and missed opportunities. Having a savage pack of basement trolls grabbing their pitchforks at every mis-play and hounding members of the community is reason enough to never want to play on stream again.

I understand that Duncan Howard refuses to play on stream except for top tables - I can't help but wonder if that is down to people in twitch chat being unmitigated pricks.

Probably as much he's aware he's giving away material information about how he plays his squad. When working at GPs/PTs there were some players who were extremely touchy about what info about their deck etc. would go out in coverage, and when.

Just now, Dreadai said:

Wow - you've got a really perverse worldview there ... streams cause sloppy play, they cause nerves and missed opportunities. Having a savage pack of basement trolls grabbing their pitchforks at every mis-play and hounding members of the community is reason enough to never want to play on stream again.

I understand that Duncan Howard refuses to play on stream except for top tables - I can't help but wonder if that is down to people in twitch chat being unmitigated pricks.

Duncan just doesn't want people being able to see his play style/openings/etc. And no one is mad at them for forgetting an easy to miss trigger in round 11.

As much as I have watched streams , I would say that as the streams are not concidered to be "proof material", they should not interfere with the players. Yelling across the room to the table is a no-no - it distracts from the flow of the game. Would be great to have a judge next to the table or to the stream, but I am not sure it is possible.

Stream is first of all a spectator, so informing a judge is a right, but optional decision.

As for the first post - I had to read through all the replies to find out what was the reason for the first post... And I am still not sure what happened.

37 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

You are focusing on a specific instance here @Sunitsa - during the regionals season, and at System Opens, GSP for example has interfered directly in a number of games, yelling time checks, reminding of crits, missed stress tokens and so on ... directly to the table, not via a judge. On at least one occasion, that I saw live, this had a material impact on the outcome of the game.

We aren't talking in specifics about the canada nationals final ... but in general.

I guess I would like streamers, particularly those who have high followings / view rates to actually follow the tournament rules rather than holding themselves apart and above them.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

Would you rather have a game decided by an unnoticed crit than having a spectator pointing out the obvious mistake?

Ofc in the ideal world every game would need to have someone to foolproof any potential error, but since it's obviously not possible, are you suggesting that even in the small number of games that actually have this luxury we shouldn't even make use of it?

I don't know you guys, but I'd love if every game of every tournament would be without game state violations.

Since we are talking in general, in general I want to play in tournament where if me or my opponent forget a non optional trigger, have someone who points it out for me.