In a recent regional I dealt non-lethal (ship had 1 hull remaining) damage to my opponents ship. My opponent miscounted damage and removed the ship from the board. He immediately realized his mistake and a judge was called. Judge ruled the ship was to be placed a close as possible to where it was. I disagreed thinking that due to the ship being removed from the play area without marking it was destroyed. Ultimately the judges decision had no bearing on the outcome of the match but I am curious what is the correct procedure here? I've searched the rules and FAQ and haven't found a passage where this scenario is mentioned. Can anyone clarify this for me?

The error on BOTH of your parts was caught and should have been corrected to the best of everyone's ability. In theory you should have the finally ok that it's actually in the SAME position but why would you think you should get a free kill because you allowed your opponent to remove a ship when he shouldn't have?

The rules for how to handle misplaced ships are, the opponent (you) gets final say on location, you put it were you fairly think it was. You don't get a free kill.

+1 for the evaluation of @StevenO and @Smitty . The closest ruling to this is in the FAQ on page 5, under "Bumping Ships." In this case, the ship was removed entirely, but the principle is the same.

I've done the same kinds of things myself, when trying to manage maneuvers in a tight bumping situation... I'll mark a ship's position, then after I move the ships, I clear away all the templates... only to realize that I cleared the MARKER template as well. Or I'll go to put my ship back after my opponent goes, but pick up THE WRONG SHIP to replace there, only compounding the problem.

I've been on the other end of a similar situation. I had Omega Leader on the board and ended up taking abt shots from a ghost. He used accuracy corrector for both shots, even after I asked if he was sure (it was a tournament and I didn't feel compelled to tell him he can cancel dice but not add results against OL while he was target locked). At the end of the round, he picked up my ship and handed it to me while I was setting dials, presumably because he assumed I had forgotten to remove it. The TO came down hard on him and DQ'd him. I don't really think it was fair, but I'm not sure what I could have done on my end to change that. If he took it slow, he would have realized I wasn't taking the shield token off or drawing damage cards, could have asked why and then not screwed up the second shot. Likewise in another game, I had QD and OL hit by a bomb. OL died, QD lost a shield and got a follow up range 1 attack on his Nym. He ended up picking up QD and handing her over instead of OL (which I get is an easy mistake) and when I told him he gave me the wrong ship, he picked up OL and handed her to me as well then continued playing like everything was done. We had to call a judge over and it took fully 15 or 20 minutes to get my ship back on the board where it should have been.

So to plainly put the follow up, what do you do about your opponent removing one of your ships erroneously? Still just place it back as close as can be, but you have final say? Is there any penalty on the part of your opponent, particularly if it was done more than once? I'd hate to call it intentionally cheating and more like he miscounted and was caught up in the excitement, but I also expect better in an official setting.

13 hours ago, KC032680 said:

In a recent regional I dealt non-lethal (ship had 1 hull remaining) damage to my opponents ship. My opponent miscounted damage and removed the ship from the board. He immediately realized his mistake and a judge was called. Judge ruled the ship was to be placed a close as possible to where it was. I disagreed thinking that due to the ship being removed from the play area without marking it was destroyed. Ultimately the judges decision had no bearing on the outcome of the match but I am curious what is the correct procedure here? I've searched the rules and FAQ and haven't found a passage where this scenario is mentioned. Can anyone clarify this for me?

The ship is placed down as close to where it was as possible and the game continues. It's not specifically mentioned anywhere I don't think, except I guess obliquely in the rules about accidentally moving the positions of ships, which would be the place to look for rules - after all, that's what happened.

Your ruling has no basis in the rules - and just imagine if that WAS the rule, you could trivially win any game by just reaching over and picking your opponent's ships up and moving them off the table.

49 minutes ago, Jimbawa said:

I've been on the other end of a similar situation. I had Omega Leader on the board and ended up taking abt shots from a ghost. He used accuracy corrector for both shots, even after I asked if he was sure (it was a tournament and I didn't feel compelled to tell him he can cancel dice but not add results against OL while he was target locked). At the end of the round, he picked up my ship and handed it to me while I was setting dials, presumably because he assumed I had forgotten to remove it. The TO came down hard on him and DQ'd him. I don't really think it was fair, but I'm not sure what I could have done on my end to change that. If he took it slow, he would have realized I wasn't taking the shield token off or drawing damage cards, could have asked why and then not screwed up the second shot. Likewise in another game, I had QD and OL hit by a bomb. OL died, QD lost a shield and got a follow up range 1 attack on his Nym. He ended up picking up QD and handing her over instead of OL (which I get is an easy mistake) and when I told him he gave me the wrong ship, he picked up OL and handed her to me as well then continued playing like everything was done. We had to call a judge over and it took fully 15 or 20 minutes to get my ship back on the board where it should have been.

So to plainly put the follow up, what do you do about your opponent removing one of your ships erroneously? Still just place it back as close as can be, but you have final say? Is there any penalty on the part of your opponent, particularly if it was done more than once? I'd hate to call it intentionally cheating and more like he miscounted and was caught up in the excitement, but I also expect better in an official setting.

I'm sorry, but some of this is on you. This game is a two way communication - both players need to be on board with what's going on. Especially in the OL vs AC case, you should have been clear that AC wasn't adding the hits when they used it the first time, it's your responsibility to make sure those hits are not added to his roll, and to be clear about why. You're not obliged to tell him before he uses it, if you're not feeling like it, but once he's chosen to use AC, you HAVE to tell him he can't add the hits, if he doesn't realise. It's a mandatory effect, both players are obliged to track it and make sure it occurs properly.

Just assuming that they've noticed you're not taking the damage is super bad form. IMO that's pretty unsportsmanlike on your part, and I'm shocked the judge would DQ your opponent in that instance.

The second one's an error.

But errors can easily creep in if both players are not cooperating together to ensure that they don't.

@thespaceinvader I agree the first part was a bit scummy. The guy has a reputation for being a jerk in games and I was happy to have a gotcha moment of my own. The DQ was harsher than the situation called for, I agree, but I think part of the reason behind it was the TO knew the guy and the DQ stemmed from how he has acted in the past.

There was also about 2 seconds between these attacks, as he didn't wait for me to do or say anything. Should it happen again, I do think I would mention it after the first attack as long as my opponent gives me time to do so. I don't like to call it hand holding, but how much is expected that you slow down the game and talk through every single step and interaction at a tournament level? Do I need to remind him to take his actions or really consider his dial maneuvers each round? Should I announce clearly that I am now about to roll my defense dice and count out loud each one and why I have them? It wasn't even the first time OL's ability was used to stop a modification, so I'm unsure what extra lengths I need to go to. I asked him on his first attack to confirm, but clearly that wasn't enough of a tip to look at the interaction. I personally think it's bad form to pick up and remove another player's ships and that he could have waited or said something, but that's not necessarily relevant.

The second game I think could have definitely been an error until he started to fight against putting QD back on the board. First he didn't want to allow me to have it back at all (because I didn't stop him from removing the wrong ship before he did it), then he wanted it moved a few times to end up in arc of another one of his ships that it shouldn't have been in. TO ruled that you can't have the last say in placing your own ship after it was moved accidentally, so it ended up going to his placement (a good barrel rolls distance away from where it started).

Back to the point though, what is the protocol if your opponent removes one of your ships when it shouldn't have been removed? Put it back on the table but you, the shipowner, have final say in its position? And where is the line between mistaking ships and intentionally trying to get them off and keep them off?

TO here.... we had something similar happen at the last event we had and after much debate, we decided it was a missed opportunity and the ship should stay removed from the board.

While both players should be careful in tracking how much damage is assigned to a ship, the overall onus is on the owner of the ship to make sure their ships have actually been destroyed before removing the ship from the table. To remove it then try to put if back can easily be used to manipulate the game so left the game state where it was after the ship was removed.

It was not a fun call to make.

30 minutes ago, Jimbawa said:

Back to the point though, what is the protocol if your opponent removes one of your ships when it shouldn't have been removed? Put it back on the table but you, the shipowner, have final say in its position? And where is the line between mistaking ships and intentionally trying to get them off and keep them off?

The rule are pretty basic for tounament, they don't describe everything...

Seriously, if your opponent remove a ship himself, he should never have the final word on placement this is totaly stupid and prone to abuse...

The rule at base is your opponent have the final word, but I find it stupid... the final word should be on the one that did not touch the ship. Just too bad for you... don't bump or remove ship you should not. And more over, you should never remove the opponent ship for whatever reason, except if asked... I hate that when someone do it... I'll call myself my ship destroyed...

@Jimbawa No name call on you, we were not there, maybe you should have said something. But maybe your opponent did not gave you time and you were like "stunned" by him (It happen to me sometime) If he had a previous reputation, it would explain the DQ, TOs are supposed to be aware of previous behaviour and use them.

First, I just searched all the PDF documents FFG has and am surprised that there isn't a clause about prematurely removing a ship from the board...I really thought I remembered reading it once long ago...

I would have to say, in this case, that my judgment call as TO would be to defer to the player that did not control the ship. If s/he believes the ship can be accurately placed on the board in its original position and is willing to allow it, then it goes back. Otherwise the controlling player made an error, a fatal one and the ship has as good as "fled the battlefield." If the player who removed the ship is known to have made this "mistake" repeatedly through past events a ruling that the ship has fled the battlefield is the more appropriate choice, constant repetition of this "mistake" is likely being used to attempt and gain an advantage. However, unless the player openly admits to attempting to gain an unfair advantage, I don't see the need or justification to DQ a player over removing their ship incorrectly and attempting to replace it. If they refuse to listen maybe an auto-loss would be in order, but never a full DQ for that reason alone .

This is a tricky one for sure.

Deferring to the player who doesn't control the ship makes it VERY advantageous for that player to purposefully move their opponent's ships, as noted above.

40 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Deferring to the player who doesn't control the ship makes it VERY advantageous for that player to purposefully move their opponent's ships, as noted above.

Easy solution is to make the final call on the position of the ship rest with the opponent of the player who physically removed the ship, regardless of who owns the ship.

So if you remove your ship from the board, your opponent gets to put it back. If you remove your opponent's ship from the board, your opponent gets to put it back.

39 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Deferring to the player who doesn't control the ship makes it VERY advantageous for that player to purposefully move their opponent's ships, as noted above.

Speaking only for myself, deferring as to whether or not they will allow placement at all. If they say no, it was removed then no placement occurs and the ship fled the battlefield due to the controlling player's error. If the ship is replaced both players would have to agree on its physical location - I just didn't specify this part at all as I presumed it was a safe assumption, like when ships get bumped.

As a judge, I’m always going to ask the players to agree on a position themselves. If they can’t, I’m going to defer in favor of the person who didn’t erroneously pick up the ship.

I miss the old Magic floor rules, where I could give them both a Warning for “Failure to Agree on Reality.”

On 3/19/2018 at 10:49 AM, shaunmerritt said:

TO here.... we had something similar happen at the last event we had and after much debate, we decided it was a missed opportunity and the ship should stay removed from the board.

While both players should be careful in tracking how much damage is assigned to a ship, the overall onus is on the owner of the ship to make sure their ships have actually been destroyed before removing the ship from the table. To remove it then try to put if back can easily be used to manipulate the game so left the game state where it was after the ship was removed.

It was not a fun call to make.

I guess you had the final say but that was a crap call. Where is the "missed opportunity" when a mistake is made and, as stated in the OP, IMMEDIATELY noticed?

On 3/19/2018 at 12:10 PM, ZealuxMyr said:

I would have to say, in this case, that my judgment call as TO would be to defer to the player that did not control the ship. If s/he believes the ship can be accurately placed on the board in its original position and is willing to allow it, then it goes back. Otherwise the controlling player made an error, a fatal one and the ship has as good as "fled the battlefield."

This was my mindset during the discussion. I was sure of the orientation of the ship but not it's exact location in relation to other ships/obstacles. I was under the impression that it was the same as "fled the battlefield" and destroyed. I was given the final say on the ships location when it was placed back on the board which was fine. The decision didn't change the outcome either way so it's not that big a deal. Nice to know that the judge's decision wasn't completely out of left field. Thanks for the input everyone.

I think it odd that opposition players feel they are free to pick up your ship or ships in a game even if they have just been destroyed.

Sure ships get bumped. In our games and tournaments that I have been in, you either ask if they could move your ship (say it's on the far side of the board) or ask to have it removed, never just dive on in without consent.