Apologies if this has been done to death, I'm new around here! As a follow up to an earlier query about whether I needed to give the Tie Advanced the title upgrade if it was just flying against other wave 1 ships (the answer being no as they were balanced against each other) - I was wondering - which wave (whether ship, card or combo) 'broke' the earlier ships such that they started to need fixes? Looking at the latest releases, there must have been some point when the T65 x-wing went from "perfectly useable in a tournament" in wave 1 to "this ship needs a special double sided title card to make it viable" in wave 14.

(The reason I'm asking is that I'll be playing with friends casually, starting with the more recognisable early wave ships, and want to know at what point I need to start finding out the 'fix' cards to keep the game balanced. (Because I don't really like the idea of playing with a basic Tie/Adv which is balanced against an x wing, but then after introducing ship 'X', announcing that suddenly the Tie advanced costs a point more, but gets this special extra critical hit skill, where it didn't before. Ideally I'll freeze the ships we use before that point.)

Short version: There's no one point that things suddenly changed; rather, "power creep" happened.

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I think that, more than one particular wave instantly outclassing another, it was a gradual shift in play styles and ship availability that made them obsolete. As more maneuverable ships (speedy A-Wings and TIE Interceptors) or tanks with more firing options (the Falcon and Firespray), slower and weaker ships fell out of favor. That only increased as "power creep" pushed older ships out of the meta. Soon, every new release would feature marginally better ships. Maybe they had more green than before, or new maneuvers (like the Segnor's Loop, then the Tallon Roll), or better upgrade bars (Jumpmaster, Scurrg), or more potent pilot abilities.

In time, FFG realized that they had a game called X-Wing in which X-Wings (and other classic ships) weren't viable anymore - compared to newer waves, older ships were too slow, too fragile, too expensive, or lacked enough punch to make them worthwhile. So, the started introducing "fixes" for ships to make them more viable... the first big fixes we saw were in Imperial and Rebel Aces, bolstering the TIE Interceptor, A-Wing, and B-Wing respectively. In addition to new, powerful pilot abilities, new upgrades allowed for interesting new build possibilities. Huge ships breathed new life into standard, as well, giving new upgrade options to older, weaker ships (Tantive-4 gave us Threepio and Fat Han, the Imperial Raider gave us Palpmobiles and a revitalized Darth Vader, etc).

This pattern has held ever since... new ships outclass old ones via Power Creep, then a later set revisits an older model of ship, giving them a boost to bring them back into competitiveness (for a while). Now, the X-Wing and U-Wing get their day in the sun, with Saw's Renegades, Palpatine gets a new home in the TIE Reaper, and (if my guess is right), be ready to dust off your YT-1300s for some new toys.

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Regardless, as far as keeping game balance goes, you're probably best if you slowly increase your collection by following the original release schedule of expansions. That way, your closed meta will change as new toys are added in, but you won't bring an overpowered card from the future into an otherwise simpler time and place.

I would second what emerald said. It's a slow process of change. Think of this as an analogy: you have a flat field and a mountain. If you take one rock off that mountain and drop it in the field the mountain is still a mountain and the field is still a field. You can move a hundred rocks or even a thousand and this is still the case. Once you have moved ALL the rock though the mountain has become a field and the field has become a mountain. At what point could you move one rock and say "This is no longer a mountain" or "That is no longer a field"? There's no possible way to pinpoint a specific spot where that happened but if you go all the way to the end it definitely happens.

If you want to be overly technical you can say that Wave I broke itself!

Maybe you flew Vader but you wouldn't touch any other Advance when you could basically fly two TIE Fighters for the same price and get double the firepower. In Wave I the rebels maybe had some three-four ship options but if you flew the Empire you flew a TIE swarm of some sort.

From there seeing something that is even mostly pure Wave I went down hill quickly. TIE swarms would stick around for a good while longer although even they may have made some changes for the Interceptor Aces and Firespray lists saw some success. For the Rebels the Falcon basically could take the place of two fighters and then when it came to fighters there was some mixing and matching. Wave III's B-Wing shook up the Rebels some more and basically took the place of most X-Wings not named Biggs while the Empire gained a cheap space whale that was used in several methods. I guess I'll say that Wave IV is where the game really started moving away from Wave I without looking back at anything except TIE Fighters or Biggs.

Ok, thanks all to the reasoned and detailed responses - even if I don't necessarily agree! Though I will admit I have nowhere near enough experience to be able to offer a counter argument, and at least I'm able to recognise that. :-)

Having picked up Rebel Aces today, would I be right is saying the B wing was given the ability to swap a mod slot for a crew slot, and the A wing basically took the ability to take a point cost reduction if it didn't take missiles, and a free EPT slot on all but prototype pilots? Neither of those feel like game breakers vs the existing wave 1-3 Ties, I'll see what Imperial Aces, Veterans and the tie phantom do when I pick those up. (Mainly because I want the ships for HotAC.)

With Rebel Aces the generic B-Wings were doing alright already and the uniques and ship specific mod didn't really change anything for them. The A-Wings however were a bit overpriced except maybe with Proton Rockets due to their weak attack and the "free EPT" is something you'll see on pretty much every A-Wing; Prototype Pilot didn't "break" the A-Wings but is next to essential to making them work.

Imperial Aces gave many of the best TIE Interceptors a second modification slot. To know what the TIE Phantom was nuts and "broke" the game you need to understand how uncloaking originally took place during the activation step which would mean that Whisper, especially when PS 9 due to Veterans Instincts, would have almost perfect knowledge of the board state and thus could often decloak to a place that was safe from attack and also put an enemy in his crosshairs. Whisper is especially nasty when he'd get to shoot first at he'd likely pick up a free Focus and also Cloak at the same time making him a real pain to get rid of.

24 minutes ago, StevenO said:

To know what the TIE Phantom was nuts and "broke" the game you need to understand how uncloaking originally took place during the activation step which would mean that Whisper, especially when PS 9 due to Veterans Instincts, would have almost perfect knowledge of the board state and thus could often decloak to a place that was safe from attack and also put an enemy in his crosshairs. Whisper is especially nasty when he'd get to shoot first at he'd likely pick up a free Focus and also Cloak at the same time making him a real pain to get rid of.

Which, if I remember correctly, started the first real "Pilot Skill Arms Race." To reasonably combat Whisper, you needed somebody who could top that 9 Pilot Skill... meaning you saw a lot of ships at PS9 with a very high initiative bid, or PS 10/11.

23 minutes ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Which, if I remember correctly, started the first real "Pilot Skill Arms Race." To reasonably combat Whisper, you needed somebody who could top that 9 Pilot Skill... meaning you saw a lot of ships at PS9 with a very high initiative bid, or PS 10/11.

Thought about mentioning "So started the Pilot Skill Wars which continue to this day." At least then PS 9 was still generally considered the top mark as the pilot who were already PS 9 usually wanted/needed their EPT slot for something else. Ok, maybe some could have taken VI but Fel pretty much has PtL glued to him. It is perhaps also the time turret hate increased to a volume that never really seems to have gone down because Han was one of the few ships that actually stood a decent chance against Whisper.

Ah, so the Phantom was the real game changer by introducing a new mechanic then? Were the original rules flawed (ate they better for balanced play after being revised?) If the rules had been then as they are now do you think the game would have developed in the same way?

My Opinion

"Wave I Ships and When They Broke, a Timeline"

If you measure the breaking point as when the super-majority (75%+) of pilots were no longer competitively viable/tabled then I would say the following:

1. TIE Fighter : This ship remained widely utilized in many rolls as a support ship, though weak and fragile at times its low squadron point cost kept it relevant for an exceedingly long time. However, with the advent of the First Order TIE Fighter on December 17, 2015 the unique named pilots of the TIE Fighter largely vanished in favor of the upgraded, minimally increased cost TIE/FO Fighter. This ship still, however, remains the Empire's go-to filler ship and its generic pilots are seen widely through Imperial lists.
2. X-Wing : The release of the T-70 X-Wing on December 17, 2015 essentially removed all but Biggs, Wedge, and Wes from the table. The release of the T-70 X-Wing that, for just an increased base cost of 3 points, added a shield, tech upgrade slot, and boost action to the older model X-Wing, widely undid the boost given to the X-Wing by the release of the GR-75 Medium Transport pack on April 30, 2014. As time progressed Wedge and Wes fell out of use in favor of rebel fortress lists using Biggs Darklighter's pilot ability to direct and mitigate fire. Consequently the final death of the X-Wing occurred with the Great Biggs Nerf of 2018.
3. Y-Wing : Though the highly famed and battle hardened leader of Gold Squadron, Dutch Vander, is rarely seen in competitive formats the Y-Wing remains widely relevant. Both the Gold and Grey squadron pilots are routinely placed as stress control BTL-A4 fighters (known as "stresshogs") and, with the advent of the Twin Laser Turret, Horton Salm has become a minor fixture for the added boost his ability provides. In short, the Y-Wing is alive and well.
4. TIE Advanced : It can be argued that this ship died with the advent of Wave 2 (February 28, 2013) as, excluding Darth Vader, the release of the TIE Interceptor and Firespray-31 all but removed the TIE Advanced from the game. It's removal only increased as more imperial ships were added. Revitalized on August 13, 2015 with the launch of the Imperial Raider and new TIE/x1 title and system upgrade slot this ship returned for a short time but, with the release of the Imperial Veterans expansion on June 30, 2016 it was largely abandoned in favor of the newly improved TIE/x7 and TIE/d.

9 hours ago, azazel1 said:

Ah, so the Phantom was the real game changer by introducing a new mechanic then? Were the original rules flawed (ate they better for balanced play after being revised?) If the rules had been then as they are now do you think the game would have developed in the same way?

The Phantom kind of broke the WHOLE game for a while, at least from a competitive standpoint. The original rules for decloaking were that a ship would decide whether to do it and then which direction when they activated. So Whisper with VI at PS 9 was almost impossible to kill a lot of times. With a good initiative bid Whisper would be moving last so you get to see every enemy's final position and with the 2 speed decloak forward or to the side combined with a potential barrel roll meant that Whisper could easily avoid almost any non-turret fire at will. The standard "buzz saw Whisper" would also run Gunner and Fire control system. So Whisper shoots, if he misses he gets a target lock and shoots again with that mod. With a four dice attack he almost certainly lands one of those at which point he cloaks and gets a focus all before anyone else has a chance to fire. Usually the worst case scenario would be a single incoming shot and he had 4 agility and a focus to deal with it. That led to the rise of Fat Han, a loaded up PS9 Millenium Falcon so you had something with a chance to kill Whisper as he couldn't arc dodge a large base turret. For a while if you were playing tournaments you basically ran either Whisper or Fat Han or you lost. TIE swarm MAYBE, but that was a distant third.

The new decloak rules require decloak at the start of activation. So you have to make your decision on that without knowing for certain where everyone is going, on top of that the opponent also gets to know where the decloak went and that gives them more information on a likely final position if they have any boosts or barrel rolls to use. It's still a good ship but it's a lot less idiot proof now.

On 3/18/2018 at 9:18 AM, azazel1 said:

Apologies if this has been done to death, I'm new around here! As a follow up to an earlier query about whether I needed to give the Tie Advanced the title upgrade if it was just flying against other wave 1 ships (the answer being no as they were balanced against each other) - I was wondering - which wave (whether ship, card or combo) 'broke' the earlier ships such that they started to need fixes? Looking at the latest releases, there must have been some point when the T65 x-wing went from "perfectly useable in a tournament" in wave 1 to "this ship needs a special double sided title card to make it viable" in wave 14.

(The reason I'm asking is that I'll be playing with friends casually, starting with the more recognisable early wave ships, and want to know at what point I need to start finding out the 'fix' cards to keep the game balanced. (Because I don't really like the idea of playing with a basic Tie/Adv which is balanced against an x wing, but then after introducing ship 'X', announcing that suddenly the Tie advanced costs a point more, but gets this special extra critical hit skill, where it didn't before. Ideally I'll freeze the ships we use before that point.)

Honestly, you can say Wave 2 did that with the Falcon. The problem with T65 is its a good baseline ship, but since it was out early, the upgrade options were limited. The ship suffered when new stuff came out.

12 hours ago, shaunmerritt said:

Honestly, you can say Wave 2 did that with the Falcon. The problem with T65 is its a good baseline ship, but since it was out early, the upgrade options were limited. The ship suffered when new stuff came out.

Well it’s not like the X-wing is known for having crew slots or turrets. A title or two that added boost, evade, or crew slot might have helped out but we will never know.

On 3/19/2018 at 12:38 PM, sharrrp said:

... That led to the rise of Fat Han, a loaded up PS9 Millenium Falcon so you had something with a chance to kill Whisper as he couldn't arc dodge a large base turret. For a while if you were playing tournaments you basically ran either Whisper or Fat Han or you lost. TIE swarm MAYBE, but that was a distant third.

....

This was basically X-Wing's Rock (Han), Paper (TIE swarm), Scissors (Phantom) metagame at its most clearly defined. With the use of Engine Upgrade Han could maybe stay out of the Swarm's reach and arc but more often the Swarm could get Han via the death of a thousand cuts when Han couldn't put a big dent in them back each round. The Swarm would have a much harder time pinning down a Phantom which could Decloak into safety, splat a TIE, and the repeat the process over and over again. The Phantom would often fall to Han simply because it's such an expensive ship but not all that tough and if it could shoot at Han the Falcon would survive at least a couple hits but the Phantom had a harder time surviving a couple return shots that always came.

I'll also say that ZealuxMyr's evaluation on the Wave 1 ships is pretty spot. The Y-Wings are the interesting place because while they could be used the basic Ion Turret equipped Y-Wings where not seen as that spectacular as TIE swarms could chew them up and Ions don't deal enough damage to keep up; occasionally they could "walk a target off" the board using Ion damage but those aren't as common. It wasn't until the Y-Wing got its own "fixes" starting with Most Wanted that it actually became something people might fear. You got the various versions of the "Hog" that utilize the title to make multiple attacks in arc but then you also the the TLT which for some reason seems to drive people mad.