Hi!

I have a qustion concerning the objects you carry.

ex; say you have the mule, now you can carry 8 object. one of these is a weapon (sword for example). you meet an enemy and battle.

Do you need to specify that it is you that are carrying the sword and not the mule? I have played talisman for almost 20 years and never come a cross any rules saying this, except when i entered this forum some talks about this, and it made me wonder???

I have always thought that it dosent matter who is carring what in this matter, only when you lose lets say ex: the mule, you must ditch 4 objects of you choice.

Fredrik Winde said:

There's a lot of discussion about "equipped Objects", "Objects of a same type" and "having/carrying" issues. These are interesting house rules to make Talisman more realistic, if you want to.

As far as official rules are concerned, you have only an "Object limit", which is 4 Objects with your Character only, then can be stretched with Mule, Horse and Cart, Porter, Miner, Bag of Carrying, Bag of Holding, Concealed Pouch. You have to specify which Objects you put in Bag of Holding and Concealed Pouch because they protect other Objets stored inside. Otherwise, you don't have to declare anything.

Official rules allow you to store the Runesword inside the Concealed Pouch and use it in combat with no problem. Still it can't be stolen if you lose against a Character. Logically it makes no sense, but this is it. Official ruling is devoted to make things simpler, at least this is my impression. I disagree with some official rulings and many people are not happy with it, but I think they serve a purpose and apply them consistently in my games.

I think your right. a carrying limit for the character, aldo he has the mule, would do the game a little more challenching and exeting, this would meen that a character don`t run around whit 20 magic objects and are overpowerd..... he must choos the ones that he wants in effect for that turn.........this is a nice housrule.

the way we play right now, after about 2h we have strength 10 or more in only points from trophys, even more from folloers and objects, so we are all overpowerd but no one whants to go for the coc, afraid to be to week when chrt. nr 2 comes up, this meens we keep killing everyting in are way.

Maby an strength and craft limit should be in use?

Fredrik Winde said:

I've noticed that in Revised 4th ed. Talisman the Objects have become less and less important, since there's plenty of Objects for everyone and some Objects in base set are still the game-breaking ones (Runesword, Wand, Orb of Knowledge). You need the Objects in the very first part of the game to get those extra points that make you comfortable in fighting creatures, but to win the game you need to choose exactly when to go for the Crown. Shall you wait 2-3 more Turns than necessary and usually you're screwed.

I lost a game last Friday with a more than Crown-ready Warlock because I rolled a 2 on the Portal of Power and said "let's draw 3 more cards in the Hidden Valley, then I'm going in and take the victory while others are still weak". I drew a Trap door and fell into the Dungeon. There I tried to land on the Treasure Chamber as soon as possible, since I had Spells that could make me win against Lord of Darkness by 8 and more, but got toaded by Random Spell instead. I lost some important Objects/Followers to someone else's benefit, but gained back the Flying Carpet. Still it took me 12 Turns to reach LoD and get to the Crown. In the meantime, other Characters grew more powerful than me.

If I decided to pass the Portal of Power the Random Spell would not have been that critical, because I had nobody on my tail and could regain back every Object with no problem. In the Dungeon I was suddenly surrounded by others and my luck ran out quickly. It took longer to complete the game and another Character eventually won, with Strength 26 (!). When you have 10-12 points of Strength or Craft and are the only Character that can reach the Crown, don't linger. The others may become powerful all of a sudden and they also tend to coalize against you. You better go when you can!

The_Warlock said:

*raises hand

Yes, I've been known to fall victim to this feeling of invulnerability when clearly in the lead as well .

Dam said:

I feel embarassed when I'm in the lead and could take the victory. Friday evening we've been playing for 80 minutes and I knew nobody would start a new game, so I felt I had to wait a little bit in order to avoid an anti-climactic endgame. In fact, my decision made the game last about one additional hour and the last 20 minutes were really tense, because everybody could have won, but in the end was a wasted victory for me.

You never know how bad your luck can be; when I rolled for Random I was SURE it would be a 1, the only result that could really change things (losing Craft or Strength wouldn't have mattered too much). In another game, the leading Ghoul Character survived and won after 1 Toadify (lost all of his Objects/Followers) and 4 consecutive Random Spells (Gypsy was in play and someone used Spell call)!

Anyway, I won my first 4ER Talisman game about one month ago, now I can afford to lose the next 20 games as usual.

Ogre Chieftain falls victim to "one more Follower" lure today. First three turns, he draws Axe and Cross and enters the Dungeon on turn 4. There, defeats a Str 4 Monster, takes as Follower. Soon after, another Str 4 Monster Follower. All the while, he draws Craft Enemies that are all Spirits, so they go poof thanks to Cross. Cashes in one Str 4 Follower to defeat a Str 6 Monster, taking that as Follower instead. Kills an Animal and a Construct to gain a point of Str. Cashes in the other Str 4 Follower to defeat Str 8 Monster, takes that as Follower. Defeats a Str 1 Monster, takes that as Follower. So he would've been Str 22 in battle vs LoD's Str 12, about 15 minutes into the game. Wanted just one more Follower to make sure he would win by 8+ (no Fate left). Then, Minstrel meets Demigod, picks the Random Spell, Toaded-Ogre. And deep in the Dungeon (in the last stretch, one space from Summoning Circle). So now he loses a life to an Umbra Spider, then hops back to his stash, avoiding a draw, then Vampire Prince sucks 2 Lives, leaving him at 1. Ironically, he makes it out of the Dungeon (losing Strength at Torture Chamber, alternative was to get killed by LoD), only to draw a Craft 1 Enemy at Woods and get killed .

Dam said:

The only weakness of the overpowered Frostmarch Characters is that they are low on Fate!

Even without Fate replenish (Graveyard and Temple, both being Neutral), Ogre Chieftain and Warlock are still joint #2 on the win-loss list, at 5 wins, 4 losses. I rate the Gypsy #1, because she maintains a winning record even after more plays (6-5 currently). Actually, of the top characters, only Gypsy has a lot Fate, all the rest pack a lot less (Troll, OC, Warlock, Gladiator, Sage).

Dam said:

I don't have such a big statistic pool as yours, but in my games Fate is often critical for winning. Best winners are Ghoul (this Character always brings luck to the player, don't know why, perhaps because he's the highest Fate of all Evil Characters?), Wizard, Assassin (because he kills everything) and Troll. The powerful Characters from the Dungeon and Frostmarch have been played less frequently, but I've never saw someone closer to victory, except in the last games when we played almost only with new Characters. Last game was won by Leprechaun against Druid and Warlock; the game before by Ogre Chieftain against Leprechaun, Warlock and Sage. Winners always picked up the bones after the leading Characters weakened and destroyed each other.

You're using the FFG board, with Graveyard and Temple Fate changes, yes? I'm running with BI board, only using Village changes, so pretty much what you start with is what Fate you get for the game, barring encounters.

Heh, Ghoul is a bottom feeder (see what I did there ) for us, just above to worst of the worst, Leprechaun, Minstrel and Priest, who are the very worst characters. Druid, Ghoul, Sorceress and Philosopher make up the group just above worst of the worst.

Dam said:

Leprechaun isn't that bad, but I think this Character brings bad luck. It has been played three times and twice by me; first game managed to get toaded by double 1 (with Fate) and later killed by Reaper (another 1); second game I was quite reckless and decided to use Fate to reroll a 4 with Reaper (don't like to miss a Turn) and rolled 1. It was 4th turn in the game, so not much loss. Leprechaun won his third game because Warlock (I) wasted it. But the player who was playing the Leprechaun, who's well known and feared for his legendary luck, had a really bad time in the first half of the game. Leprechaun has nothing wrong, except some sort of curse. On the other side, the vile Ghoul seems to be blessed around here. His rating is 4 games won out of 7 appearances.

Dam said:

It may not seem like much, but that's a serious difference. I too use the BI board but fully patched. At least once in any game (or upto three times), some evil character replentishes in the graveyard and a neutral will try to gain fate there as well. Fate has been played late game to an effect, though not for a turnabout that I can remember. It has played a role throughout the game, and likely influences things not easily measurable. So at a guess, available replentishment beyond luck of the draw does have an influence on outcomes... and win/loss ratios.

the Equip/Unequip rule for Objects has been house ruled by groups going all the way back to the release of Talisman 2E. Overall for accounting, there are some situations where considering what you are carrying in baggage, on followers, or on your person are already part of the game. You cannot carry the pouch on a mule and still use it - I don't know a single group I've been in touch with that would allow this. So there are already situations where designating what you carry personally, within your personal object limit, does matter whether explicitly stated in the rules or not.

I've seen 7 and 8 year old players pick up on this instantly; I've seen a brand new 12 year old player in a first game get bent when a 27 year old player swapped in a Shield for using an extra weapon because he lost a fight to her. We've had games with players from 7 to 59. Age has turned out to be irrelevant on this one. If a 7 year old can look at card called a "Mule" and instantly start trying to figure out what it should carry... only to have to be told it doesn't matter...

Well come on now, why treat players in general as more witless than a 7 year old based on the justification of "keeping it simple"?

Contrary to claims, equip/unequip doesn't make things more complicated, and even the youngest players take to it easily... intuitively... often questioning why it isn't in the rules in the first place (one way or another). Either that, or our group is just fortunate to have more intelligent youngsters (but I seriously doubt that could be true).

Fredrik Winde... choose a game with your most experienced players for the most part - meaning age isn't a factor. Give it a try once and see for yourself. After that, if its not as much trouble as you thought, give it another try with other players and see what they think. It can't hurt. Make the eguip/unequip very simple; players can do so at both the beginning of their own turn (before doing anything) and at the end of their turn (with no further action allowed after that). The double opportunity balances the new restriction and still keeps people from trying to justify mid-turn changes.

Dam i can't believe you don't like the Minstrel!! he is one of my favorites!! i have won many games with him! last night he had charmed an snow wolf and had the pegasus, magical belt, orb of knowledge,and an ancient artifact!! I definitely think the Minstrel is one of the better characters,,with his high fate,,and especially if he turns bad,,and is able to get his fate back quickly!! by the end of our game my Minstrel had all the Talisman on the board!! fear the Minstrel everybody!!! His smile can be very deceiving! I also like the Leprechaun a lot!! definetly my favorite Frostmarch character! His teleport ability might be the best ability in the game!! hey teleport me to the woods anyday baby!! and then i'm going to the graveyard to buy my fate back!!! I think its best to leave the Leprechaun as Neutral,,because he has lots of money to buy his life and fate back!!! I would take the Leprechaun and Minstrel over the Ogre Chieftain anyday!!! I have found that the worst character is the warrior from what i've seen! he is just too slow coming out of the box i think! low fate hurts him too!

fasteddy23 said:

Minstrel is 1-14 (win-loss) in 15 appearances. That makes him tied worst in win-loss with the Priest. Last game, he had a chance to win (would've beaten the Elf at the Crown), but couldn't get a Talisman (Hydra at Hidden Valley had Talisman, but kept regenerating every time the Minstrel beat it).

fasteddy23 said:

Of course, any character with that kind of a draw would be good (swap Snow Wolf, Str 2? for Colossus for same deal for any char). Assuming Pegasus = Unicorn, that still gives him only Str 4, lower then Ogre Chieftain or Troll with starting stats for battle, even Warrior would probably beat him with his 2 dice.

i think the key to the Minstrel,,is to draw as many cards as possible,,and to try and make him evil,,so that he can refill his fate easily,,and use his fate a lot.

fasteddy23 said:

The power from the Minstrel is the charm ability

If you have the chance to charm strength 5 enemies, then he gets a +5 strength in battle.

Lucky charm or twist of fate would be good to use ( if i am right)