I’m almost done work on version 1.0 of my Middle Earth setting, but I need a little help on Force Strength for mass combat. I’m not sure what would be good examples of different force strengths. I’ve got some ideas, but I’m not sure how make it work in true LotR fashion to go from a dozen or so up to 10,000+.

I need:

Trivial (Easy):

Significant (Average):

Imposing (Hard):

Staggering (Daunting):

Vast (Formidable):

Overwhelming (Total of 6 difficulty/ability dice):

I'm not sure what you want with these difficulties. Use the regular difficulties for combat, looks good to me.

I have an idea to work with massive troops: use the minion rules, but instead of 1 to 5 units, use a large reference:

1= 20 to 100 units
2= 101 to 500 units
3= 501-2.000 units
4= 2.001-5.000 units
5= 5.001-10.000 units

But I think these numbers could be much less, so if you have an army with 10000 soldiers, in the grid this would mean several "units" maybe. Maybe...

1= 20 to 100 units
2= 101 to 250 units
3= 251-500 units
4= 501-1.000 units
5= 1001-2.000 units

So, if we put two armies of 10.000 to fight one which other, in the table would be 5x5 troops (5 minion groups vs. 5 minion groups). Easy to resolve I guess, would be almost like a regular combat with 4-5 players vs. few enemies.

Just now, Bellyon said:

I'm not sure what you want with these difficulties. Use the regular difficulties for combat, looks good to me.

I have an idea to work with massive troops: use the minion rules, but instead of 1 to 5 units, use a large reference:

1= 20 to 100 units
2= 101 to 500 units
3= 501-2.000 units
4= 2.001-5.000 units
5= 5.001-10.000 units

But I think these numbers could be much less, so if you have an army with 10000 soldiers, in the grid this would mean several "units" maybe. Maybe...

1= 20 to 100 units
2= 101 to 250 units
3= 251-500 units
4= 501-1.000 units
5= 1001-2.000 units

So, if we put two armies of 10.000 to fight one which other, in the table would be 5x5 troops (5 minion groups vs. 5 minion groups). Easy to resolve I guess, would be almost like a regular combat with 4-5 players vs. few enemies.

The problem is, it is more than just numbers. 1000 human peasants is not as good a fighting force as 100 elven warriors, which is not as good a fighting force as 20 Great Eagles. Lead by Example has example force strengths from Star Wars, but I’m not sure how to translate that into LotR terms.

6 minutes ago, Johan Marek Phoenix Knight said:

The problem is, it is more than just numbers. 1000 human peasants is not as good a fighting force as 100 elven warriors, which is not as good a fighting force as 20 Great Eagles. Lead by Example has example force strengths from Star Wars, but I’m not sure how to translate that into LotR terms.

Maybe just pick a number and calculate based on the type of training the force has as well as the species.

5-10k or so.

5-10k Hobbits EASY 1 difficulty

5-10k Peasants of varying species AVERAGE 2 difficulty

5-10k Human Soldiers HARD 3 difficulty

5-10k Orcs DAUNTING 4 difficulty

5-10k Elves/Dwarves FORMIDABLE 5 difficulty

29 minutes ago, Johan Marek Phoenix Knight said:

The problem is, it is more than just numbers. 1000 human peasants is not as good a fighting force as 100 elven warriors, which is not as good a fighting force as 20 Great Eagles. Lead by Example has example force strengths from Star Wars, but I’m not sure how to translate that into LotR terms.

Not as problematic as you are thinking. Just adjust the stats to fit well.

A human infantary could have 3 WT and 3 Soak, defense 1 (sword), 22xxxx. They are using common swords +3 Damage, 2 Crit, etc.

A elven warrior could have 5 WT, soak 3, defense 2 (1 sword + 1 racial), 23xxxx. Using an elfic sword: +3 damage, 2 crit, accurate 1, etc.

In this case, 1 troop with 100 elven warrior could be as strong as 101-500 human infantary.

You can create even powerful troops:

Uruk-hais: 6 WT, 5 Soak, Defense 1 (sword) 41xxxx, Greatsword: Dam +4 (8), Defensive 1, Pierce 1, Unwieldy 3. Orcs can have Battle Rage (p.143) also. 1 setback for +2 damage.

Here we have a very strong troop.

1 minute ago, Bellyon said:

Not as problematic as you are thinking. Just adjust the stats to fit well.

A human infantary could have 3 WT and 3 Soak, defense 1 (sword), 22xxxx. They are using common swords +3 Damage, 2 Crit, etc.

A elven warrior could have 5 WT, soak 3, defense 2 (1 sword + 1 racial), 23xxxx. Using an elfic sword: +3 damage, 2 crit, accurate 1, etc.

In this case, 1 troop with 100 elven warrior could be as strong as 101-500 human infantary.

You can create even powerful troops:

Uruk-hais: 6 WT, 5 Soak, Defense 1 (sword) 41xxxx, Greatsword: Dam +4 (8), Defensive 1, Pierce 1, Unwieldy 3. Orcs can have Battle Rage (p.143) also. 1 setback for +2 damage.

Here we have a very strong troop.

You are very heavily misunderstanding the problem here. I already have stats for individual minion types. This is about Mass Combat, which has entirely different rules.

How about setting the initial dice score by size modified by upgrading the dice based on strength?

So 250 units would be 2 green dice but they're elite warriors, so upgrade to two yellow. Something along those lines maybe?

Or vice-versa. Treat size and strength just like a skill & attribute.

ETA: And then superior/inferior weapons can get boost/setback dice and terrain mods can earn boost/setback and etc. etc.

Just now, theReplicant said:

How about setting the initial dice score by size modified by upgrading the dice based on strength?

So 250 units would be 2 green dice but they're elite warriors, so upgrade to two yellow. Something along those lines maybe?

The Leadership skill of the commander is what upgrades the check. I'm using the Mass Combat skills found in the AoR book Lead by Example. The only issue I have is what size/variety of Middle-Earth-themed forces fits into each category.

Just now, Johan Marek Phoenix Knight said:

The Leadership skill of the commander is what upgrades the check. I'm using the Mass Combat skills found in the AoR book Lead by Example. The only issue I have is what size/variety of Middle-Earth-themed forces fits into each category.

Sorry. I don't own any Star Wars books.

Just now, theReplicant said:

Sorry. I don't own any Star Wars books.

It's alright, I was just trying to clarify what it is I am looking for.

Just now, Johan Marek Phoenix Knight said:

It's alright, I was just trying to clarify what it is I am looking for.

No, my fault for not paying a little closer attention to your OP.

18 minutes ago, Johan Marek Phoenix Knight said:

You are very heavily misunderstanding the problem here. I already have stats for individual minion types. This is about Mass Combat, which has entirely different rules.

I guess you don't understand my suggestion so.

I'm suggesting to use the troops as minions. Using the minion rules. Instead of few units, use that conversion to understand how big the troop can be.

The combat would be like a normal combat. Just it.

Whats is the problem with this?

There are many ways to run this kind of combat. I have one idea here.

2 minutes ago, Bellyon said:

I guess you don't understand my suggestion so.

I'm suggesting to use the troops as minions. Using the minion rules. Instead of few units, use that conversion to understand how big the troop can be.

The combat would be like a normal combat. Just it.

Whats is the problem with this?

There are many ways to run this kind of combat. I have one idea here.

You still don't understand. I already have the rules down. i am not asking for help on how to make Mass Combat work, because I already know how it works. I already transcribed the rules from the Lead by Example book onto my pdf. The only issue left is what fits into what category.

Tell me why Force Strenght is useful and what are you trying to fit in each category, cause i'm really missing this.

I can't see why more info despite the stat block are needed here.

5 minutes ago, Bellyon said:

Tell me why Force Strenght is useful and what are you trying to fit in each category, cause i'm really missing this.

I can't see why more info despite the stat block are needed here.

This is the version from Lead by Example. I am trying to do the exact same thing, but using Lord of the Rings instead of Star Wars.

I would make it bigger, but it won't let me upload anything bigger.

Basically:

Trivial: Hundreds of civilian militia

Significant: A "company" (whatever that means) of Imperial Army troopers

Imposing: A "platoon" of Imperial Stormtroopers, a dozen Wookie warriors

Staggering: A "company" of Imperial Stormtroopers, a "paltoon" of Alliance SpecForce

Etc.

Not very helpful when they use words like platoon, company, battalion, regiment, etc.

Well each of those words has a number of soldiers associated with it, so there's that.

7 hours ago, Johan Marek Phoenix Knight said:

Basically:

Trivial: Hundreds of civilian militia

Significant: A "company" (whatever that means) of Imperial Army troopers

Imposing: A "platoon" of Imperial Stormtroopers, a dozen Wookie warriors

Staggering: A "company" of Imperial Stormtroopers, a "paltoon" of Alliance SpecForce

Etc.

Not very helpful when they use words like platoon, company, battalion, regiment, etc.

According to the Imperial Handbook :

• A squad is 9 soldiers
• A platoon is 4 squads (4 x 9 = 34)
• A company is 4 platoons (4 x 34 = 136)
• A battalion is 4 companies (4 x 136 = 544)
• A regiment is 4 battalions (4 x 544 = 2176)
• A battlegroup is 4 regiments (4 x 2176 = 8704)
• A corps is 4 battlegroups (4 x 8704 = 34,816)
• An army is 4 corps (4 x 34,816 = 139,264)

Lead by Example assigns greater strength to elite units over lesser units. It's about 3-4 'tiers' of skill, so to speak. Assign a group to each tier (for example, armed peasants with improvised weapons, conscripted soldiers, career soldiers, and elite warriors), then say a fighting force of 100 farmers with torches and pitchforks is equal to about half as many properly armed guardsmen, and so on and so forth. Assign your own numbers and groups as needed.

8 minutes ago, Swordbreaker said:

According to the Imperial Handbook :

• A squad is 9 soldiers
• A platoon is 4 squads (4 x 9 = 34)
• A company is 4 platoons (4 x 34 = 136)
• A battalion is 4 companies (4 x 136 = 544)
• A regiment is 4 battalions (4 x 544 = 2176)
• A battlegroup is 4 regiments (4 x 2176 = 8704)
• A corps is 4 battlegroups (4 x 8704 = 34,816)
• An army is 4 corps (4 x 34,816 = 139,264)

Lead by Example assigns greater strength to elite units over lesser units. It's about 3-4 'tiers' of skill, so to speak. Assign a group to each tier (for example, armed peasants with improvised weapons, conscripted soldiers, career soldiers, and elite warriors), then say a fighting force of 100 farmers with torches and pitchforks is equal to about half as many properly armed guardsmen, and so on and so forth. Assign your own numbers and groups as needed.

Thanks!

Even if the PCs are playing a minor role in the fight, the commanders' Leadership shouldn't be the only skills that influence the battle. Your list in the LotR mod includes Perception, Stealth, Riding, Vigilance, Siege, and Skullduggery - all of which a clever player could invoke to make a difference in a fight. Part of letting the PCs shine is ensuring that players have opportunities to have them make a difference.

With this in mind I would let the players roll the check - even if PCs are not leading the battle, getting to roll always makes these types of encounters seem more momentous.

2 minutes ago, player966703 said:

Even if the PCs are playing a minor role in the fight, the commanders' Leadership shouldn't be the only skills that influence the battle. Your list in the LotR mod includes Perception, Stealth, Riding, Vigilance, Siege, and Skullduggery - all of which a clever player could invoke to make a difference in a fight. Part of letting the PCs shine is ensuring that players have opportunities to have them make a difference.

With this in mind I would let the players roll the check - even if PCs are not leading the battle, getting to roll always makes these types of encounters seem more momentous.

I’m using FFGs Mass Combat rules. If you don’t like them, take it up with FFG.

Besides, players actions DO influence the check. Leadership is just the one that most directly influences it. Read the whole thing.

Your LotR writeup is the only place I've seen mass combat rules for Genesys, as opposed to Star Wars. This discussion shows that they may not be suitable for other genres. Given the other neat stuff you put in the mod, I have no doubt you could make something more interesting for mass combat.

I'd also like to hear your thoughts about the players rolling.

9 minutes ago, player966703 said:

Your LotR writeup is the only place I've seen mass combat rules for Genesys, as opposed to Star Wars. This discussion shows that they may not be suitable for other genres. Given the other neat stuff you put in the mod, I have no doubt you could make something more interesting for mass combat.

I'd also like to hear your thoughts about the players rolling.

The rules work fine for genres other than Star Wars. They are very simple and easily work for any setting. The only thing this “discussion” shows is that most of the people here had no clue what I was talking about. There is no more reason for this thread to exist, as all I wanted was help figuring out what fits into which force strength category, and I got that.

As for the players rolling, they are already doing plenty of rolls. The PCs aren’t just sitting around in between Mass Combat checks. Each phase the players will have their own objectives that they are trying to accomplish during that phase, with the results of their attempts affecting the Mass Combat check. Why would they need to be the ones rolling the Mass Combat check as well? And how would you even decide who does that? They can’t all roll the check together. The rules are perfectly fine how they are.

If the players don't roll, why bother rolling at all? The GM is the only person interpreting the result in either case.

1 minute ago, player966703 said:

If the players don't roll, why bother rolling at all? The GM is the only person interpreting the result in either case.

What? You aren’t making any sense.