1 minute ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Wait, am I misunderstanding this statement? I thought a raid token prevented a ship from resolving that command whether it was a dial or token?

They have to spend that activation ridding their ship of that raid token. Whether they lose a command token or the whole dial to achieve that, I could see it adding up quick. (Particularly if there are enough mando's to reapply the raid token after that ship activates. Perpetually leaving it stuck without). Especially if there's other command token modifiers on the field. Q7s come to mind immediately (ICBs too but no one uses them atm...).

I could see this really screwing speed based small ship builds. In the specific case of the quasar it could even be more effective than slicers as it kicks the pursuant title right in the ****.

You really think it's DOA?

The problem is you run into a Konstantine-style problem where you're investing a decent number of points into a speed-screwage shtick (with the Q7s and Gauntlets) when the same points could've just made serious contributions towards killing the ships in question rather than messing with them. Turns out being dead is the ultimate debuff.

Given the ubiquity of Comms Net flotillas nowadays, any plan leaning hard on Raid needs a plan for taking out those flotillas ASAP so Raid can be applied consistently enough for it to add up and for Raid to make enough of a difference for the points investment to be worth it. It's conceptually not impossible to satisfy those requirements, but the bar is rather high.

5 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

The problem is you run into a Konstantine-style problem where you're investing a decent number of points into a speed-screwage shtick (with the Q7s and Gauntlets) when the same points could've just made serious contributions towards killing the ships in question rather than messing with them. Turns out being dead is the ultimate debuff.

A very good point!

Still, I'm of the mindset that it may not be too much to ask for both. 'Cause it's not just speed screwage, raid hits all the walls. If it can interrupt a fleet's gimmick even for a solid turn, it could be enough to change the game. Add to that a speed 4 hull 7 squadron with rogue, I'm just not terribly convinced it's dead. Maybe not optimal, and probably not competitive, but not dead.

13 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

Given the ubiquity of Comms Net flotillas nowadays, any plan leaning hard on Raid needs a plan for taking out those flotillas ASAP so Raid can be applied consistently enough for it to add up and for Raid to make enough of a difference for the points investment to be worth it. It's conceptually not impossible to satisfy those requirements, but the bar is rather high.

So the timing of placing that raid token is before the spend defense token step of the attack, and I rarely see fleets with more than 1 comms net flotilla these days. (at least locally, everyone is scrounging points for a low bid lol). Couldn't I just raid the flotilla?


This is all hyperbole and hypotheticals on my part, but it does strike my curiosity.

Maybe my local meta will be getting hit with a swarm of Raid-Jank fleets for a change lol test some of these theories!

2 hours ago, Darth Sanguis said:

Wait, am I misunderstanding this statement? I thought a raid token prevented a ship from resolving that command whether it was a dial or token?

They have to spend that activation ridding their ship of that raid token. Whether they lose a command token or the whole dial to achieve that, I could see it adding up quick. (Particularly if there are enough mando's to reapply the raid token after that ship activates. Perpetually leaving it stuck without). Especially if there's other command token modifiers on the field. Q7s come to mind immediately (ICBs too but no one uses them atm...).

I could see this really screwing speed based small ship builds. In the specific case of the quasar it could even be more effective than slicers as it kicks the pursuant title right in the ****.

You really think it's DOA?

(snagged this from google because I don't have access to the rules slip on hand)

The problem is, if the ship with the raid token has as well the fitting command token, it can just discard this token to have the full effect of the dial. All you did with the raid token was stealing one command token. And this is not worth it for the points and the cost the Gauntlet has.

As long as nearly every list has at least one Comms Net Flotilla flying around, the raid token does not enough. You are giving up way to much for the gauntlet and the effect. If the opponent has squadrons your Gauntlets will not last long enough, and are only free points for your opponent. And if he has no squadrons, you are just giving up damage to "maybe" mess up with his commands. The maybe is the problem. And even if you are not using the assault effect, you just spend 20 points for a squadron with 2 blue dice that is no bomber. In my opinion way to expensive.
Before you add a Gauntlets, you should have add Firesprays (cheaper, better against ships, better against squadrons). And you know how common these are these days

Yeah after beating my head against a wall trying to get these guys to work I've given up (better off fielding another Defender). The only use I get out of them is that my opponents tend to burn Saxon down quickly, as they seem to be more afraid of Raids than I would think.

20 hours ago, impspy said:

The only use I get out of them is that my opponents tend to burn Saxon down quickly, as they seem to be more afraid of Raids than I would think since hes a big fat juicy source of 23 points.

FTFY.

So I never got to be apart of this so forgive me for the resurrection of the long dead thread but What about Rhymer and using slicer tools? Yes messing with a ship does not seem huge but when you have the ability to do so or the ability to mess with tokens you can honestly lock ships out of the game or into positions they dont want to be in.

Is the mind set still, a dead ship is the only good ship or are we of a mind that we can mess with ships to gain the advantage of losing less in the long run?

6 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

So I never got to be apart of this so forgive me for the resurrection of the long dead thread but What about Rhymer and using slicer tools? Yes messing with a ship does not seem huge but when you have the ability to do so or the ability to mess with tokens you can honestly lock ships out of the game or into positions they dont want to be in.

Is the mind set still, a dead ship is the only good ship or are we of a mind that we can mess with ships to gain the advantage of losing less in the long run?

I mean, you can try to include Rhymer, some Mando's, and a slicer tools ship, but you let me know when you start inserting something into this list so far designed to actually win the game instead of just delaying time.

2 minutes ago, geek19 said:

I mean, you can try to include Rhymer, some Mando's, and a slicer tools ship, but you let me know when you start inserting something into this list so far designed to actually win the game instead of just delaying time.

Hahaha I think you are looking at a different concept and are missing it but sure. Let me toss something together

Konnie Returns

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 399/400

Commander: Admiral KonstantineAssault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

Imperial Star Destroyer Kuat Refit(112 points)
- Strategic Adviser ( 4 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- External Racks ( 3 points)
= 130 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Interdictor-class Suppression Refit (90 points)
- Admiral Konstantine ( 23 points)
- Interdictor ( 3 points)
- Captain Brunson ( 5 points)
- G7-X Grav Well Projector ( 2 points)
- Grav Shift Reroute ( 2 points)
= 125 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Admiral Titus ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

1 Mandalorian Gauntlet Fighter ( 20 points)
1 Gar Saxon ( 23 points)
1 Gamma Squadron ( 10 points)
1 Ciena Ree ( 17 points)
1 TIE Advanced Squadrons ( 12 points)

1 Jumpmaster 5000 (12 points)
= 94 total squadron cost

@Lyraeus

This was the list i originally put together as a joke reason to use Gauntlets and it was shockingly effective. (Which is to say, won some casual games) The amount of speed shenanigans was generally enough to keep things in front of the Kuat to be killed, or awqy from the objectives to be farmed, if i ran into someone who wanted 2nd player, the Kuat is a big enough threat on 1st activation to make yhat problematic. Furthermore the G7X zone has game against Raddus/Profundity, and caused problems for several such opponents, especially when combined with the Gauntlets threatening to swoop in and tag them with Nav Raid to keep from accelerating.

Ultimately the combo dictates enemy dial usage to a respectable margin, and then limits or stops the use of that command. I will say Gauntlets love hanging out on an obstacle to pounce on an enemy ship and deliver some Beskar-clad commandos to mess things up. Carriers do not appreciate raid at all especially if you can land more than one.

3 minutes ago, Alzer said:

Konnie Returns

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 399/400

Commander: Admiral KonstantineAssault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Dangerous Territory

Imperial Star Destroyer Kuat Refit(112 points)
- Strategic Adviser ( 4 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Electronic Countermeasures ( 7 points)
- External Racks ( 3 points)
= 130 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Interdictor-class Suppression Refit (90 points)
- Admiral Konstantine ( 23 points)
- Interdictor ( 3 points)
- Captain Brunson ( 5 points)
- G7-X Grav Well Projector ( 2 points)
- Grav Shift Reroute ( 2 points)
= 125 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Admiral Titus ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

1 Mandalorian Gauntlet Fighter ( 20 points)
1 Gar Saxon ( 23 points)
1 Gamma Squadron ( 10 points)
1 Ciena Ree ( 17 points)
1 TIE Advanced Squadrons ( 12 points)

1 Jumpmaster 5000 (12 points)
= 94 total squadron cost

@Lyraeus

This was the list i originally put together as a joke reason to use Gauntlets and it was shockingly effective. (Which is to say, won some casual games) The amount of speed shenanigans was generally enough to keep things in front of the Kuat to be killed, or awqy from the objectives to be farmed, if i ran into someone who wanted 2nd player, the Kuat is a big enough threat on 1st activation to make yhat problematic. Furthermore the G7X zone has game against Raddus/Profundity, and caused problems for several such opponents, especially when combined with the Gauntlets threatening to swoop in and tag them with Nav Raid to keep from accelerating.

Ultimately the combo dictates enemy dial usage to a respectable margin, and then limits or stops the use of that command. I will say Gauntlets love hanging out on an obstacle to pounce on an enemy ship and deliver some Beskar-clad commandos to mess things up. Carriers do not appreciate raid at all especially if you can land more than one.

Thank you! This encapsulate the style of list building and play! Yes people have X but no one really plans for Gauntlets. They are considered weak

1 minute ago, Lyraeus said:

Thank you! This encapsulate the style of list building and play! Yes people have X but no one really plans for Gauntlets. They are considered weak

They're the Spanish Inquisition of Squadrons.

My meta has become very squad-light...mayhaps it is time for their return...

1 minute ago, Alzer said:

They're the Spanish Inquisition of Squadrons.

My meta has become very squad-light...mayhaps it is time for their return...

Hahaha my area is never like that @Mikael Hasselstein is a squad fanatic still I hear

I played Gar Saxon there times. First game, aganst a Leia MSU list, he was great. He shut down the flagship what made it impossible for her to flee out of my attack range and got her killed. Second game, against Thrawn carriers and boarding Raiders, he was a complete waste. My last game I tried him together with a group of TIE Defender. He worked like an escort, because my opponent concentrated fire at him first. (Was okay but expensive.) I was never able to trigger his keyword in three games.

Ironically Saxon came together with Thrawn who is the best counter against RAID. But there are so many others, like Tarkin, Comms Net, Skilled First Officer, ... All cards generating command tokens / changing dials work against him.

When you look at his/Gauntlets stats, he is a poor fighter. Most expensive for speed 4. Really bad in Hull/FP. Worst average damage output against squadrons per FP. And only mediocre bomber. (See squadron comparison chart at wiki). I believe he is only Rogue NOT to work with Sloane ... :'(

He is only good against special lists with low squadron invest and low command token shenanigans. Only when you invest in intel. Maybe you'll find a way to make him shine? I didn't and gave up.

Nose Punch 4.0!

The fighters are too expensive to utilize efficiently. I prefer 2 Tie/B because I can actually kill the ship instead of annoy it with raid tokens.

Gar might have a place in a sort of Ruthless Strategist list where being a speed 4, hull 7 Rogue, combined with his auto-damage ability, helps really put the hurt on Intel ships.

You don’t see many high squadron lists without Intel these days. Using his auto damage ability, he gets up to Cienna Ree levels of anti-squadron ability, whilst being able to fly himself around and be a target for Ruthless Strategists.

His Assault ability is then just a nice to have once either you’ve won the fight, or they don’t have squadrons, but not the primary reason you’re taking him.

On 3/15/2018 at 7:39 PM, BrobaFett said:

If raid stopped the dial, it would be worth it. Since it does not, and can be eliminated with a token, and ALL are discarded when you discard a dial, it is next to useless unless your opponent is a complete buffoon.

Slicers are better, cheaper, and more reliable. Assault was DOA.

If you like Mandalorians, by all means continue to use them thematically! They are still high hull fighters with rogue. Perhaps a ruthless strategist heavy gladiator/raider fleet could get use of them?

Wait, I thought it did? If you have a squad raid token, and reveal a squad dial, the dial can't be resolved until the raid token is gone, removed by discarding the squad dial??

12 minutes ago, eliteone said:

Wait, I thought it did? If you have a squad raid token, and reveal a squad dial, the dial can't be resolved until the raid token is gone, removed by discarding the squad dial??

I think Broba means that you can just recieve a token from other sources to discard the raid before you take the command.

6 minutes ago, Alzer said:

I think Broba means that you can just recieve a token from other sources to discard the raid before you take the command.

True you can do that but its not always a gaurentee

23 minutes ago, Lyraeus said:

True you can do that but its not always a gaurentee

No but it's awfully close. Especially big ships don't leave home without token support these days and really haven't not since Wave 3. I agree with the older sentiments; Assault is cute but DOA competitively. Saxon has potential, but you're taking him because you want a big fast ace, not because he's a Slicer in a box, because they're better flat out.

7 minutes ago, GiledPallaeon said:

No but it's awfully close. Especially big ships don't leave home without token support these days and really haven't not since Wave 3. I agree with the older sentiments; Assault is cute but DOA competitively. Saxon has potential, but you're taking him because you want a big fast ace, not because he's a Slicer in a box, because they're better flat out.

Sure. Tokens are important and if you have ways to mess with your opponent then tokens might not always be the best of things.

When you say Mandalorian Gauntle Fighter... do you mean the DX-9 Delta-Class Stormtrooper transport?

20 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

The fighters are too expensive to utilize efficiently. I prefer 2 Tie/B because I can actually kill the ship instead of annoy it with raid tokens.

Can you? Can 2 Tie/sa actually kill the ISD or does it have merrits to "annoy" the ISD and reducing its efficeny instead of just removing shields?

2 hours ago, DScipio said:

Can you? Can 2 Tie/sa actually kill the ISD or does it have merrits to "annoy" the ISD and reducing its efficeny instead of just removing shields?

I mean, taking off 2-4 shields with a single attack ain't no joke.

Consider this. Raid let's you prevent a single command and it's telegraphed before the start of the game. So I take the token I want on round 1 to discard and now I negated 1 round of raid attack, while you decrease your damage output by removing dice to raid.

Maybe you are raiding a carrier and prevent squad commands. What are the chances the ship doesn't have a squad token early in the game? And if you don't raid early, will the mando fighter still be alive after the carrier activates?

Maybe you are raiding an ISD to prevent Navs. How many ISDs do you see without Comms Net? Or MC80s with Comms Net/Leia/Ahsoka? I know I run 2 with my 75 or Kuats.

Maybe you want to raid and slicer for total control over a ship. What's the activation order? Do you raid to prevent X, and then slice to Y? If you're doing that to me, I'm just going to discard the dial to get rid of all the raid tokens and now your raid has been useless because slicer did all the work.

The Mandolorian fighter is a waste of points. To make it effective, you'd have to take 2 and raid every round, because that actually forces your opponent to discard dials which is how you control the ship. If it can't use dials, raid is doing its job. If you run 2 against a squadronless fleet, chances are you'll do pretty well. However, if you run against Rieekan Aces or Sloane, you have 40 dead points because those fighters have awful attacks.

I'd also like to point out that raid does not get you closer to winning. You're spending 20 points to prevent a single command and not dealing any damage when you do so. You're not scoring any points. That's why 2 Tie/B are more efficient for their points. They deal damage, they force your opponent to make tough decisions, and they can score points off objectives.

3 hours ago, DScipio said:

When you say Mandalorian Gauntle Fighter... do you mean the DX-9 Delta-Class Stormtrooper transport?

Can you? Can 2 Tie/sa actually kill the ISD or does it have merrits to "annoy" the ISD and reducing its efficeny instead of just removing shields?

2 tie bombers cost 18 points, have an average of 2 dmg what means they "prevent you from resolving an engineering dial of 4 points". If the ship is not resolving engineering anyways then they do damage actually putting your ship at -2 damage from being prevented to resolve commands at all. They are also 1 extra deployment and 10 hull points with the same average damage against squadrons. If they don't kill an ISD they are more annoying for sure. ?

I'm not saying it's good, or efficient, or heck even effective. But it is funny. You can work these components in concert to lock a ship out of performing a few commands. At the same time that you shut down it's defenses, pair with Avenger for great justice. It's a component of a fun fleet but that's all it is.

Mando Joint Lock (83/400)
=========================
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 20)
+ Minister Tua (2)
+ Slicer Tools (7)
+ Suppressor (4)
+ Electronic Countermeasures (7)
2 x Mandalorian Gauntlet Fighter (2 x 20)