Yorr's ability is really strong right now with all the Stress Ezras, tactician wookiees, stressbot + Fenn right now. On top of Aces kturning and PTL-ing and being stress free. Just Yorr with death troopers could see table time after the reaper. Aces stay near Yorr, fire at aces, get stressed.

26 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

It should be because of Palpatine. IT'S A *** **** SHUTTLE!!

Indeed. It is, ultimately, a caddy for the crew.

The more officers we get, the better - in theory - a crew carrier will get. But the problem is that the Lambda is sandwiched between the TIE shuttle (which is cheaper if restricted to not carrying Krennic, Hux or Palpatine) and the Decimator/Upsilon. Is there a space for another 2-crew ship in that gap?

...Probably not, to be brutally honest.

But yes, the Shuttle was a relic of the first few waves, much like the (imperial) Firespray, where there was a believe in the development team that you should pay for upgrade slots even if there was nothing in them. These days? There are a plethora of zero cost elites, modifications, systems and crew, so there is some logic to that argument, but it was deluded at best when first published.

It's dial is awful but it doesn't have access to the tech needed to make up for this (turrets, boost/barrel roll, etc).

I think the worst example of the shift in power is the Scurrg H-6:

• This ship has essentially the same statline as the lambda; 5/5, Agility 1, Primary 3, Focus and Target Lock
• It has a (single) crew slot, or a systems slot (admittedly not both at the same time), and a large selection of other empty upgrades too (if we accept turret as approximately equivalent to cannon, and the bombs, missiles and torps equivalent to the second crew and whichever other slot you don't have)
• It has a very good dial, with white turns, (admittedly red) speed 5 straights, and talon rolls, as well as the barrel roll action

And this ship is of a price where you can field the same number of Scurrg as you can Lambdas.

I'd like to think it won't be all one-sided in favour of the Reaper, but as noted, 'effective' agility 2 goes a long way to make up any difference in toughness, and I suspect advanced ailerons will do much the same to any deficiency in manoeuvrability. The question will be (a) how expensive it is once you fit those two, and (b) how effective the targeting scrambler and thr??? corr??? systems upgrades (which the lambda can carry and the reaper can't) will prove.

I'll be interested to see if it's actually capable of pulling it's own weight as a non-crew-carrying fighter; that is, can just a squad of generic reapers do decent work?

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Indeed. It is, ultimately, a caddy for the crew.

The more officers we get, the better - in theory - a crew carrier will get. But the problem is that the Lambda is sandwiched between the TIE shuttle (which is cheaper if restricted to not carrying Krennic, Hux or Palpatine) and the Decimator/Upsilon. Is there a space for another 2-crew ship in that gap?

...Probably not, to be brutally honest.

But yes, the Shuttle was a relic of the first few waves, much like the (imperial) Firespray, where there was a believe in the development team that you should pay for upgrade slots even if there was nothing in them. These days? There are a plethora of zero cost elites, modifications, systems and crew, so there is some logic to that argument, but it was deluded at best when first published.

The Lambda's dial is awful but it doesn't have access to the tech needed to make up for this (turrets, boost/barrel roll, etc).

I think the worst example of the shift in power is the *&%$#@*!!! Scurrg H-6:

• This ship has essentially the same statline as the lambda; 5/5, Agility 1, Primary 3, Focus and Target Lock
• It has a (single) crew slot, or a systems slot (admittedly not both at the same time), and a large selection of other empty upgrades too (if we accept turret as approximately equivalent to cannon, and the bombs, missiles and torps equivalent to the second crew and whichever other slot you don't have)
• It has a very good dial, with white turns, (admittedly red) speed 5 straights, and talon rolls, as well as the barrel roll action

And this ship is of a price where you can field the same number of Scurrg as you can Lambdas.

This.

I love my Lambda's, and fly them despite their design chains; but FFG really screwed the game's most technologically advanced faction, in not giving Imperial support ships either maneuverability or turrets. The other factions support ships have either maneuverability and/or turrets.

The Lambda and Upsilon were both movement screwed. Period.

Let's hope the Reapers Advanced Ailerons works and doesn't simply continue FFG's previous design mistakes.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Uh. If really good players can win really hard games at really high levels with the ship, then how the **** does that not reflect well on the ship??

It should be because of Palpatine. IT'S A *** **** SHUTTLE!!

Because there are ships that require no such skill that perform better.

Balance is not in a vacuum. The lambda is a bad ship not because it's crap, but because there are way better ships in the game. Literally every one of them.

Yes, you can do well with the lambda. But it's because you are good and not the ship.

And so is the sheatipede. Case closed.

11 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

FFG really screwed the game's most technologically advanced faction,

Lies. Deception.

8 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Lies. Deception.

You got me thinking.... so it was a Rebel infiltrator's design flaw into the maneuvering system designs of the Shuttles? Akin to the exhaust port design? Ah, I get you now; it was an inside job. A real Clancy like deception.

Firstly, it's hard to see how a ship that has been a staple of competitive lists is "bad". It was a doom shuttle then it was a OGP palpmobile now it's a yorr palpmobile. Indeed there's very few ships that can boast of being a competitive staple for so long. It may have seen it's day but it had a better run than B-wings, Soontir, Brobots and other power builds of yesteryear. So while it has arguably the worst dial in the game and very limited combat potential it's clearly not bad. Now it may be that the new shuttle fills the same niche and is just plain better. I'm not 100% sure I'd bet on it though, the lambda is still big and tough and cheap.

Not that a lambda fix that attempts to make the ship more than just a palpshuttle would be unwelcome. It's always been badly designed (why on earth doesn't it have a rear arc? It has a great big cannon on the back! Yeah I know anti-pursuit-lasers but that looks more like a proper gun to me. Why the firespray got a rear arc but not the lambda I'll never know). Tyderium seems obvious although giving the Rebels access to another Imperial ship may not be desirable.

Very few ships in X-Wing are good naked.

Inquisitor has his Push the Limit, Autothrusters & title build to shine and nobody has problem with that. Whisper won't go out without Veteran Instincs & Adv Cloacking Device.

OGP & Yorr has their Palpatine, Collision Detector build to make them top notch pilots and then its a problem.

I don't follow

2 minutes ago, Green Doo said:

Very few ships in X-Wing are good naked.

Inquisitor has his Push the Limit, Autothrusters & title build to shine and nobody has problem with that. Whisper won't go out without Veteran Instincs & Adv Cloacking Device.

OGP & Yorr has their Palpatine, Collision Detector build to make them top notch pilots and then its a problem.

I don't follow

Yeah but when Empire gets ships that also want PtL and Thrusters, its a choice between which ship to take. If the Reaper is THE New Palp carrier, the Lamda now isn't only bad naked, but an objectively worse option than the reaper which is what people are worried about.

54 minutes ago, HammerGibbens said:

1 hour ago, RufusDaMan said:

Because there are ships that require no such skill that perform better.

Balance is not in a vacuum. The lambda is a bad ship not because it's crap, but because there are way better ships in the game. Literally every one of them.

Yes, you can do well with the lambda. But it's because you are good and not the ship.

A. Skill is a huge part of this game, so a little "gut gud" doesn't mean the Lambda isn't.

B. The TIE Punisher would like a word.

54 minutes ago, HammerGibbens said:

Yeah but when Empire gets ships that also want PtL and Thrusters, its a choice between which ship to take. If the Reaper is THE New Palp carrier, the Lamda now isn't only bad naked, but an objectively worse option than the reaper which is what people are worried about.

So, what, no one wants any new ships designed?? Or not until the old ship can be made it's equal?? In which case why design any new ships at all??

It still kills me that everyone expect every ship to sit at 99% efficiency. ALL THE TIME.

It's like people want the Lambda and the Reaper to be exactly the same ship, so that choice doesn't matter.

If you can't find it in your heart to fly a ship because you want to, then at least don't complain that it has been replaced by a "better" ship you are "screwed" into.

TIE Punisher atleast still has deathrain, which is actually a threat if used right.
Lambda doesnt do anything, even with palp. It has no positional play, arc requirement, range requirement, absolutely nothing other than existing so palp can do his thing.

1 minute ago, Vineheart01 said:

TIE Punisher atleast still has deathrain, which is actually a threat if used right.
Lambda doesnt do anything, even with palp. It has no positional play, arc requirement, range requirement, absolutely nothing other than existing so palp can do his thing.

Welcome to the archetype of "shuttle."

58 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

A. Skill is a huge part of this game, so a little "gut gud" doesn't mean the Lambda isn't.

B. The TIE Punisher would like a word.

So, what, no one wants any new ships designed?? Or not until the old ship can be made it's equal?? In which case why design any new ships at all??

It still kills me that everyone expect every ship to sit at 99% efficiency. ALL THE TIME.

It's like people want the Lambda and the Reaper to be exactly the same ship, so that choice doesn't matter.

If you can't find it in your heart to fly a ship because you want to, then at least don't complain that it has been replaced by a "better" ship you are "screwed" into.

Did you actually read what I wrote?

It doesn't matter what the lambda can or cannot do. What matters is its ability to do things compared to other ships.

There is nothing wrong with the Lambda. The problem are all the other ships that are better.

Yes, in a game it actually matters to get as close to 100% efficiency as possible EVERYTIME.

There is no reason for 1 ship to be better for its points than other ships. That argument is indefensible.

Now, ffg won't nerf every ship that is too good, so the only remaining option is to buff everything else.

And that the lambda needs.

52 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

Did you actually read what I wrote? Yep.

It doesn't matter what the lambda can or cannot do. What matters is its ability to do things compared to other ships. In 100/6.

There is nothing wrong with the Lambda. The problem are all the other ships that are better. In 100/6.

Yes, in a game it actually matters to get as close to 100% efficiency as possible EVERYTIME. For 100/6.

There is no reason for 1 ship to be better for its points than other ships. That argument is indefensible. If we are only willing to look at this game a a dogfighting deathmatch.

Now, ffg won't nerf every ship that is too good, so the only remaining option is to buff everything else. True. Again, the Lambda is a 1.0 ship, so I agree:

And that the lambda needs.

But what FFG has decided to do (apparently) is make a better shuttle. For 100/6.

To be honest, this business model of "fixing" ships has really curtailed what I buy. Because if a ship is subpar (and most of them fail to hit the mark), it's going to see an aces pack. So why buy more than 1?

And if this game featured Objectives (like every other Star Wars game FFG has released--but for some reason not this one), ships like the Lambda could function in the role for which they are designed, instead of struggling to be dogfighters in a game of other, better, space-superiority starfighters. Because the Lambda shouldn't need to be compared to the other ships and in the game on a 1:1 basis.

I fly the Lambda. It's tough. Some games it doesn't pull it's weight, but in other games it gets lucky and Vader's "Whisper" out of existence so my TIE strikers have a chance. I recognize that the dial is largely to blame for those bad games, or rather, my deployment is to blame, but the dial isn't good enough to let me recover. I still fly it because it looks so good, and can draw a lot of fire from my Imperial Trainees if the opponent doesn't want to get Vadered. (As an aside, I used to despise the Doom Shuttle, but now I love it.)

But like many others, I am going to switch out for the TIE Reaper when it comes out, just to see what it can do. Who knows, maybe I'll still like the Lambda. In my opinion, it is a solid ship, and it has been a staple of my Imperial squads, with Kagi or Yorr flying with my elite TIE interceptors, a Fleet Officer OGP supporting my 4 generic TIE interceptors, and now a Doom Shuttle killing the bad guys with 4 TIE strikers. Oh, and how could I forget Colonel Jendon powering up my TIE advanced in Epic play? Yeah, I've had a ton of fun with the Lambda over the years, but I'm eager to see what the TIE reaper will bring to my games.

25 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

But what FFG has decided to do (apparently) is make a better shuttle. For 100/6.

To be honest, this business model of "fixing" ships has really curtailed what I buy. Because if a ship is subpar (and most of them fail to hit the mark), it's going to see an aces pack. So why buy more than 1?

And if this game featured Objectives (like every other Star Wars game FFG has released--but for some reason not this one), ships like the Lambda could function in the role for which they are designed, instead of struggling to be dogfighters in a game of other, better, space-superiority starfighters. Because the Lambda shouldn't need to be compared to the other ships and in the game on a 1:1 basis.

Are we in the Epic forum? No.
Are we in a custom playmode thread? No.

Yes, I'm talking about 100/6. The core game. You can play whatever you want, but that doesn't make 100/6 less bad. If you think that by lazily shifting the conversation to other game-modes is an answer you are wrong. Don't shift the goal post. This isn't about epic or anything else.

Objectives will matter when they are in the game. They are not. XWM is a dogfighting game. I expect every non-epic expansion to do well in the CORE game, and I don't think my expectations are high, or unrealistic.

18 minutes ago, RufusDaMan said:

Are we in the Epic forum? No.
Are we in a custom playmode thread? No.

Yes, I'm talking about 100/6. The core game. You can play whatever you want, but that doesn't make 100/6 less bad. If you think that by lazily shifting the conversation to other game-modes is an answer you are wrong. Don't shift the goal post. This isn't about epic or anything else.

Objectives will matter when they are in the game. They are not. XWM is a dogfighting game. I expect every non-epic expansion to do well in the CORE game, and I don't think my expectations are high, or unrealistic.

Fair enough.

1 hour ago, RufusDaMan said:

There is nothing wrong with the Lambda. The problem are all the other ships that are better.

Uhhh, no. There was always a fundamental problem with the lambda on its own merits. It was a large-base ship with no k-turn, no turret or aux arc and no hard turns that weren't red. And I'd argue that "all other ships are better" would indicate something wrong with it!

20 minutes ago, The Inquisitor said:

Uhhh, no. There was always a fundamental problem with the lambda on its own merits. It was a large-base ship with no k-turn, no turret or aux arc and no hard turns that weren't red. And I'd argue that "all other ships are better" would indicate something wrong with it!

True, but we were all shaking in our boots when we saw the 21 point cost of the generic. That was outrageous back then! Turns out, it was balanced. Sure, squads with 4x Lambdas flown well were incredibly tough to beat, but people knew that if you could get behind them, you were safe. So the Lambda player had to be good at predicting where to move, and when to use that red 2-turn.

Now, with all the other new stuff, it is outclassed. But originally, that wasn't the case.

13 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

True, but we were all shaking in our boots when we saw the 21 point cost of the generic. That was outrageous back then! Turns out, it was balanced. Sure, squads with 4x Lambdas flown will were incredibly tough to beat, but people knew that if you could get behind them, you were safe. So the Lambda player had to be good at predicting where to move, and when to use that red 2-turn.

It wasn't all that long ago that I saw 4 Lambdas in action at a tournament. The Porcelain Void Buffalo herd may be old school, but 40 health and 12 red dice ain't to be sniffed at.

4 minutes ago, Parakitor said:

True, but we were all shaking in our boots when we saw the 21 point cost of the generic. That was outrageous back then! Turns out, it was balanced. Sure, squads with 4x Lambdas flown will were incredibly tough to beat, but people knew that if you could get behind them, you were safe. So the Lambda player had to be good at predicting where to move, and when to use that red 2-turn.

Now, with all the other new stuff, it is outclassed. But originally, that wasn't the case.

8 minutes ago, The Inquisitor said:

Uhhh, no. There was always a fundamental problem with the lambda on its own merits. It was a large-base ship with no k-turn, no turret or aux arc and no hard turns that weren't red. And I'd argue that "all other ships are better" would indicate something wrong with it!

In my opinion, the Lambda is kind of a weak ship by today's standards for those reasons, but as @Parakitor says, it is (was) very reasonably priced, and isn't far off from what I consider a healthy power curve.

I love the ship's aesthetics (in fact, I wish the Gunboat was a bit more lambda-esque), and I would love to play it more.

I think not giving it an Aux arc was a mistake, because it would work really well even today, and it would never have been too powerful, if it keeps everything else as is. And it would also satisfy the need of being "accurate" in terms of maneuverability. It still wouldn't do crazy maneuvers or anything messed up.

However, since giving it an aux arc without cardboard errata (never happened before) is impossible, I think we need to add additional support abilities to the ship.

My idea is based on Major Stridan's ability as a system slot for lots of points. (I made a thread, it is somewhere around here).

The way support abilities work with range limitations is really counter intuitive with how the game works in imperial context.

We have highly mobile aces that like to dart around the map. And we have a really slow and clumsy moving support ship that can carry the support crew, that likes to go as slow as possible. These ships need to be close to each other to gain benefit from the support crew.

This is also the reason why the Lambda doesn't see play. By being range 1-2 to your slowest moving ship, you really sacrifice the benefit of your supreme mobility. This is why Palpatine is the only support crew being played by the empire.
I really hope the Reaper is similarly mobile to the Striker, so that I can actually use it with Aces and support crew.

While I've seen 4 lambdas once upon a time I don't remember it being particularly prevalent. BBBBZ or double falcon or TIE swarm were the lists at that time.

Right: a system upgrade that specifically improves crew abilities could be a good upgrade to make the U-wing, Lambda and Upsilon better without impinging on already-good ships with system slots.

And yes, the Imperials always had a problem with being designed with lots of support combos with short range and lots of ships that want to range freely. Totally agree.

I fly the lambda (still) with baffle for the full stop. If the reaper lacks slow maneuvers, the lambda will still have a place.

The lambda still shows up frequently in competitive scenes. And this is post-nerfing its primary (only) crew option.

I really don't see why a competitive list element needs a buff.

I think an argument can be made that it needs more viable builds, but there are many ships that suffer from "mono-build syndrome" competitively.

I'd rather FFG focus on buffing ships that are rarely ever played than buffing ones that are.

14 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

The Lambda and Upsilon were both movement screwed. Period.

Actually, the Upsilon's okay - it has both White turns and the ability to easily carry multiple tokens through a red move with stuff like Pattern Analyser and Advanced Optics.

Given it's extra two pips of toughness and that massive 4-dice primary weapon, it's actually pretty scary - I've seen triple batwings rip through meta squads before.

14 hours ago, HammerGibbens said:

Yeah but when Empire gets ships that also want PtL and Thrusters, its a choice between which ship to take. If the Reaper is THE New Palp carrier, the Lamda now isn't only bad naked, but an objectively worse option than the reaper which is what people are worried about.

Indeed. I'm happy for their to be competition, not to see the shuttle replaced.

9 hours ago, Shenannigan said:

I fly the lambda (still) with baffle for the full stop. If the reaper lacks slow maneuvers, the lambda will still have a place.

Indeed. When I say a lot will depend on the Reaper's play style, I'm assuming it will either have a Segnor/Talon/Koiogran or a Stop, but I can't see it having both. Which one it has will dramatically change the play style.

10 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

It wasn't all that long ago that I saw 4 Lambdas in action at a tournament. The Porcelain Void Buffalo herd may be old school, but 40 health and 12 red dice ain't to be sniffed at.

I do want to try that at some point. I used three in an event a while back, and even 'just' three was quite shocking.

Do you remember what they were armed with?