My buddy and I are having a disagreement on premeasuring. Activating Luke. Have move tool in hand he held it and measured where he thought the first move would be then the second move all without placing the move tool on the table. Is this ok? I feel that gives him information that he can use to decided if he wants to move to cover or if he cant' make it take a dodge or something else instead. I read the premeasuring thing from the Learn to Play rules. He felt that it doesn't apply to the active unit.

No you can only premeasure with the range ruler

"Players can measure with the range ruler at any time. Movement tools can be placed against a unit’s leader and adjusted freely only during that unit’s activation."

The rules make it sound like you can always use the range ruler, but can only "pre-measure" with the movement tool during a unit's activation. If it was Luke's activation, it seems perfectly reasonable for him to "pre-measure" with the movement tool to get an idea of how far Luke can go. You definitely can't use the movement tool to pre-measure for an unactivated unit.

I would say based on the idea of measuring is allowed that you can use the movement tool to measure, when it’s that units activation. You do not have to move having done the measurement. (Compulsory move excepted of course)

No, you can’t.

You can premeasure freely with the range ruler.

Movement tools can only be used during a units activation and can only be placed against a leaders base. So you can freely measure one range band at a time, but you can’t double measure it like your describing

1 hour ago, mini78 said:

"Players can measure with the range ruler at any time. Movement tools can be placed against a unit’s leader and adjusted freely only during that unit’s activation."

mini78,

Do you believe that the action needs to be nominated before the movement tool is placed next to the figure?

1 hour ago, ScummyRebel said:

I would say based on the idea of measuring is allowed that you can use the movement tool to measure, when it’s that units activation. You do not have to move having done the measurement. (Compulsory move excepted of course)

Hi Scummy,

If you don't move after placing the movement tool, would you still count that as having used an action?

In casual play obviously a non-issue. It's the comp scene that this really needs clarity, ie "as soon as the movement tool is used (if the unit moves or not), the unit is considered to have used a move action".

For those units that gain an attack after movement this could be a legit strategy. As the rules also stated that a figure doesn't need to move the entire distance (again unless it's a compulsory move).

I think the issue that is coming up isn't about premeasuring, necessarily, but about committing to an Action. It sounds like his opponent was holding the movement tool above Luke, checking possible move placements, then deciding not to perform a move action after all. @Kanawolf, can you confirm this?

Here's what I'm stuck on: "placed against a unit’s leader and adjusted freely only during that unit’s activation"

So, what if I don't place it against the base?

What if I place it next to the base?

What if I place it against the base of a miniature other than that group's leader?

According to RAW those are all legal?

6 minutes ago, Zrob314 said:

Here's what I'm stuck on: "placed against a unit’s leader and adjusted freely only during that unit’s activation"

So, what if I don't place it against the base?

What if I place it next to the base?

What if I place it against the base of a miniature other than that group's leader?

According to RAW those are all legal?

Based on the rules for things being in the way, holding the tool above the unit leader in about where it would be if it were on the ground is fine (For example, if you're determining if a unit can get to a good spot on a hill). Putting the tool elsewhere (including against another mini) is not.

Imho, if you place the movement device either next to or above the unit leader or any miniature in that unit then you are going not only against the rules but also against the spirit of the rules. It seems kind of "gamey" to me and I don't think that I would like to play against someone who would do this.

To save the pain of moving models, terrain etc in order to place the template it makes perfect sense to me to hover the template when required when figuring out your move. Doesn't seem gamey whatsoever

Realistically the leader can end his move anywhere within max movement range, the template can be placed in 360 around his base and then he can stop along the template anywhere. So the template isn't even needed all the time.

It is #GameyAsCrap to measure for a move action, guesstimate where the unit’s base will be, measure with the mvt tool a second time and then decide u want different actions.

Is that what your opponent was doing @Kanawolf ?

55 minutes ago, Son of Skywalker said:

Imho, if you place the movement device either next to or above the unit leader or any miniature in that unit then you are going not only against the rules but also against the spirit of the rules. It seems kind of "gamey" to me and I don't think that I would like to play against someone who would do this.

This is explicitly allowed in Armada, so I don't see it as explicitly "gamey." It's all about what should or should not be open knowledge. In X wing part of the skill is piloting your ships by committing to movement in advance. In Legion you have so much flexibility in movement that I don't see a problem with doing some loose eyeball measuring before you lock the template in.

What I would have a problem with is excessive measuring and time wasting.

Also to OPs original example, measuring future moves is over the line. Not a huge advantage but I'd mention it in a casual game (agree to both refrain from doing it) and insist that it not be done in Organized Play.

Personally, I think the spirit of this particular rule is more about time than it is about tactics. Similar to the one-tool-at-a-time rule in Armada (which I think, ironically, makes the game slower. But that's a completely separate discussion.).

Provided my opponent is not taking extreme amounts of time planning movements, I have no problem with roughly checking movement distances for the active unit.

10 minutes ago, DarkJello said:

It is #GameyAsCrap to measure for a move action, guesstimate where the unit’s base will be, measure with the mvt tool a second time and then decide u want different actions.

Is that what your opponent was doing @Kanawolf ?

He ended up moving forward 2 moves, and short of a barrier by a 1 range move tool. At that point he was in a huff because i questioned weither he could premeasure movement with the move tool. He actvated luke via random draw. Then held tool in front of luke. No other figures or obstacles were in the way. Then before moving luke then "measured" again further forward. It was at that point that i questioned if that was right or legal and point to the premeasue paragraph in the learn to play. He later texted me that he thinks he was right that he can premeasure with the activated unit, just not other units.

Quote

Players can measure with the range ruler at any time. Movement tools can be placed against a unit’s leader and adjusted freely only during that unit’s activation. (RRG 37)

2 hours ago, Timinater said:

Do you believe that the action needs to be nominated before the movement tool is placed next to the figure?

2 hours ago, Timinater said:

If you don't move after placing the movement tool, would you still count that as having used an action?

In casual play obviously a non-issue. It's the comp scene that this really needs clarity, ie "as soon as the movement tool is used (if the unit moves or not), the unit is considered to have used a move action".

It doesn't say or suggest that anywhere.

1 hour ago, Zrob314 said:

Here's what I'm stuck on: "placed against a unit’s leader and adjusted freely only during that unit’s activation"

So, what if I don't place it against the base?

What if I place it next to the base?

What if I place it against the base of a miniature other than that group's leader?

According to RAW those are all legal?

What? No. "Placed against a unit's leader only during that unit’s activation" is pretty clear.

12 minutes ago, Big Easy said:

This is explicitly allowed in Armada, so I don't see it as explicitly "gamey." It's all about what should or should not be open knowledge. In X wing part of the skill is piloting your ships by committing to movement in advance. In Legion you have so much flexibility in movement that I don't see a problem with doing some loose eyeball measuring before you lock the template in.

What I would have a problem with is excessive measuring and time wasting.

5 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

Personally, I think the spirit of this particular rule is more about time than it is about tactics. Similar to the one-tool-at-a-time rule in Armada (which I think, ironically, makes the game slower. But that's a completely separate discussion.).

Provided my opponent is not taking extreme amounts of time planning movements, I have no problem with roughly checking movement distances for the active unit.

But if u have to choose between not making it to behind cover or not then deciding oh **** i should take a aim or dodge instead it makes a difference.

Since we can measure with the range ruler at anytime and one can rather easily know where the different move speeds are on that template isn't it just saving everyone involved a lot of time to allow measureing 2 moves at once.

I don't know the people I play with these kind of things don't pop up.

4 minutes ago, Kanawolf said:

But if u have to choose between not making it to behind cover or not then deciding oh **** i should take a aim or dodge instead it makes a difference.

Sure, it does make a difference if you are allowed to pre-measure multiple moves. And as-written, you are absolutely right that you can't. Your opponent was wrong and it's a shame he got into a huff about it.

I'm just saying I would have no issues with it as long as my opponent is not opening up a spreadsheet to build a matrix of every possible permutation of movement combos every time he activates a unit, lol. As I said, I think the idea behind this rule is about keeping the game moving.

1 hour ago, Kanawolf said:

He ended up moving forward 2 moves, and short of a barrier by a 1 range move tool. At that point he was in a huff because i questioned weither he could premeasure movement with the move tool. He actvated luke via random draw. Then held tool in front of luke. No other figures or obstacles were in the way. Then before moving luke then "measured" again further forward. It was at that point that i questioned if that was right or legal and point to the premeasue paragraph in the learn to play. He later texted me that he thinks he was right that he can premeasure with the activated unit, just not other units.

The 2nd measurement should NOT have happened until Luke completed his 1st move action, per my understanding of the rules.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

What? No. "Placed against a unit's leader only during that unit’s activation" is pretty clear.

I'm hoping this is the correct and simplest explanation (different from Armada) but it could be clearer for rules lawyering (that is definitely needed, as OP has already run into this issue during the demo weekend).

"Players can measure with the range ruler at any time. Movement tools can be placed against a unit’s leader and adjusted freely only during that unit’s activation."

The way that is written makes it seem as if the preposition ("at any time/only during that unit's activation") is what is being contrasted. The clarification should be that the antecedent ("Players can measure with the range ruler/Movement tools can be placed against a unit's leader and adjusted freely") is being contrasted or at least explained more fully--i.e., is placing the movement tool against a unit leader's base during that unit's activation the ONLY time you have any business touching the movement template? I would say yes, but IMO let's have some clarification before I go accusing strangers of cheating. Measuring two moves is right out.

2 hours ago, DarkTrooperZero said:

Since we can measure with the range ruler at anytime and one can rather easily know where the different move speeds are on that template isn't it just saving everyone involved a lot of time to allow measureing 2 moves at once.

I don't know the people I play with these kind of things don't pop up.

The range ruler is not especially precise. I mean, you could mark it up how far each movement speed will carry you, but that might be considered an illegal modification of a game tool since it's giving you information you're not normally allowed to have (Honestly, though, given that we already had a few people almost poked with the thing during my store's unboxing, I think my store is going to default to tape measures for range in non-tournaments).

8 hours ago, Squark said:

(Honestly, though, given that we already had a few people almost poked with the thing during my store's unboxing, I think my store is going to default to tape measures for range in non-tournaments).

Lol that is why it comes in sections.

Ok I havnt played the game or read many rules yet but regards this, cant you just-

As you can use the range ruler when you want,cant you just (knowing the distances) use the range ruler to work out where your second move would get you?

Not saying I would do it(I wont).