Tullio said:

Assumption on my part, really. They do have fangs and red thirst. While they can just drink blood from the local blood bank, I'm assuming the red thirst or black rage basically forces them into a vampiric frenzy.

See what happens when we make assumptions? Space marine chapters become cooler.

At least these vampires are not sparkly

LeBlanc13 said:

THE BLOOD IS THE LIFE! THE BLOOD IS THE LIFE!

( Aajav-Khan, 20+ year veteran of Vampire the Eternal Struggle )

( PS: Yes, my first DW character WILL be a space vampire. Just in case anybody had doubts . )

LeBlanc13 said:

You think Space Marine vampires are cooler? I think they're kind of hokey.

I prefer Space Marine cannibals myself.

LeBlanc13 said:

It's not a wildly inaccurate assumption, either. The Red Thirst is, as the name suggests, not a million miles from what you describe (though bloodlust on the battlefield generally isn't going to be seen as too much of a problem, especially when you're naturally an assault-focused army anyway). If the Blood Angel is able to harness it, it can be a valuable tool to enhance their ferocity in close combat, but it can also overcome their reason and lead to commissions of tactical errors. Hopefully DW will provide rules for these aspects of the gene curse.

The Black Rage is something altogether different: an affliction that has the Blood Angel reliving Sanguinius's last moments, and from which there is no return. That will be your PC becoming an NPC and, most likely, dead.

Unless you're Mephiston. And I get the feeling that Deathwatch isn't quite going to stretch to that sort of power level.

Niqvah said:

The Red Thirst and the Black Rage can lead to pretty ugly things. The Flesh Tearers, a Blood Angels successor chapter, massacred a whole column of refugees they were supposedly defending on Armageddon, which almost lead to a gunfight with the Salamanders. It's pretty ugly.

As for power level, well Ascension is going to have Dark Heresy characters become inquisitors and has charming enemies like Greater Daemons and Alpha Plus Psykers. I can see end level Deathwatch being very, very powerful.

Cynical Cat said:

But that's the Flesh Tearers for you. Their methods are, shall we say, a little more direct than many are comfortable with. (To put it mildly.)

I agree the power level will be high, but Mephiston (in the new codex particularly) has got to be one of the top librarians the Imperium has, if not the very best. He's had hundreds of years to earn XP... I mean glory. Also, since he is the only one who has ever overcome the Black Rage (so far) I think it would be strange if Deathwatch gave Blood Angels players the opportunity to do so.

Cynical Cat said:

Err...I think you're thinking of the Marines Malevolent there. The Flesh Tearers slaughtered a local militia after they had killed all of the orks they had been fighting. It was the Sisters of Battle that witnessed said events not the Salamanders.

My slight mistake. It was the Sisters who were there, but the Salamanders condemned the actions as well.

Also, there's the incident mentioned in the Space Wolves Codex called Honour's End, where the Flesh Tearers went nuts as they usually do, and the Space Wolves were around. Needless to say, it didn't end well. Then again, the Space Wolves are led by a guy who stood up to the gorram Inquisition after the first war for Armageddon to try to stop civilians from being killed, so there was only one way the whole mess could have ended.

Perhaps the Flesh Tearers suffer from the same sort of bad press as the Dark Angels. Once someone has got hold of a characteristic of the Chapter, it's all too easy to use that every time they come up. In the majority of their battles, the Flesh Tearers are your typical, heroic and courageous defenders of the Imperium.

Actually, all this is making me think it might be fun to play a Flesh Tearer in Deathwatch. Challenge the stereotype! (Until you go berserk and slaughter a group of innocent people... then you have to hope you have half-decent Fellowship and Deceive. "They were Khornite cultists. They all had brands, but um... you can't see them any more. On account of the torn flesh. Because I had to remove the heretical marks. Yes. Now, if you'll excuse me, I really must be going.")

Niqvah said:

Err...nope. They're pretty much psychotic butchers and habitual cannibals. They use exclusively assault-oriented tactics, and enjoy killing so much that they really don't care if it's friend or foe. They are not typical and most certainly aren't heroic. I think you are getting them confused with their sibling Chapters who aren't nearly as crazed and pretty much fit what you are describing.

Atheosis said:

We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. The Flesh Tearers may have a very direct combat style, but that doesn't mean they are frenzied killers of any and all who cross their paths. I'm not saying they haven't earned their savage reputation, but ultimately, they are a loyal Chapter, not Chaos Marines. To say they are simply crazed is akin to saying all Space Wolves do is get drunk and scrap amongst themselves.

Atheosis said:

That´s why they are so great! C´mon none of the Sanguinius kids has as much fun as Flesh Tearers, I was suffering whole Deus duology, but when Red Fury arrived I almost chocked with joy. They are bloodthirsty lunatic monsters with barbarity of Saurian Carnosaur released into Lucid Palace. But they know it and use it against their enemies. Enemies of the Imperium, as they are Imperial monsters.

Everything what proper Istvaanist would dream of.

TorogTarkdacil said:

Really? You would not be one of them by any chance? Please follow these two gentlemen. They will escort you to a nice, quiet place where you can explain your opinions to the Lord Inquisitor...

Aajav-Khan said:

Oathed Servants of Oblation laught at your empty threats you deluded infidel

I think there was some discussion what would a Deathwatch Kill-team do, I its members find out that their employer is Radical. Now, imagine Kill-team made of Flesh Tearer, Relictor, Marine Malevolent and Black Dragon.

TorogTarkdacil said:

"Deluded infidel"!? *snaps fingers* ( The henchmen reveal stun batons ) You do realize this discussion is being recorded? The Lord Inquisitors will be most interested about that comment of yours.

Flesh Tearers, Relictors, Marines Malevolent and Black Dragons in the same squad? *Shudders in fear* You would have to look for a more wretched group of mutated, borderline heretic and on-the-edge Astartes... The only sensible thing to do would be to point them at an enemy and let them loose. Hopefully they not only annihilate the enemy but die in the process.

Aajav-Khan said:

Are you sure he would believe babling of condemed heretic AND mutant, such as you? *smirk from under the hood*

Well, you can always add Mortificators, Flesh Eaters, Sons of Anateus, Minotaurs, Angels of Vengeance (those black-armoured unforgiven IIRC), White Panthers, Exorcists and many other borderline lunatics. I´m realy looking forward expansions with minor chapters.

TorogTarkdacil said:

Second that. Hopefully the future mechanics for creating DYI chapters have enough leeway for these kinds of Chapters.

Niqvah said:

You can disagree if you like but that's official GW story on them.

Niqvah said:

Being a Space Wolves fanboi, as it were, they pretty much DO just get drunk and fight with each other... Until they're called to battle. Then they sober up and fight the enemies of the Emperor. And once they're done with that, they go get drunk and resume brawling with each other.

At least, that's what they want you to think.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

Heh heh, exactly. Similarly, I think the Flesh Tearers don't do anything to dispel the rumours of their bad behaviour. Let people be afraid of them and their fearsome reputation, then they'll either underestimate their tactical capability or simply think it isn't worth tangling with them in the first place.

Niqvah said:

Reports filed by an Adeptas Sororitas Order requesting the immediate destruction of the Chapter are a bit more substantial than "rumors". Seriously, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the Flesh Tearers aren't the blood-crazed psychos that all the official background material says they are. What about the Tyranids? Have the reports of their ravenous swarms consuming entire biospheres also been exaggerated? And the Orks? Are you going to tell me they don't live for war? I mean seriously?

Atheosis said:

It is not my desire to brawl indecorously over this, nor is there any point in doing so. I will state my case and say no more on the matter.

I have not disagreed that the Flesh Tearers have a rightfully fearsome reputation for savagery in battle. Their geneseed is even more prone to the Black Rage than other Blood Angels successors, and there are indeed numerous reports from Imperial allies concerned by their battlefield conduct. What I disagree categorically with is that they are entirely crazed psychopaths who slaughter all their allies as well as their enemies. That is simply not true. They are still a loyal Chapter of Astartes, and they have the same training as any other Marines (indeed, they tend to possess a notably impressive diversity of skills, driven by the fact that their Chapter is so small and any brother could be called upon to fill a variety of battlefield roles).

Many of them fall early to the Black Rage, and they are ferocious in combat, to an alarming extent. They are not, however, entirely without higher reason. Doomed: quite possibly. Preoccupied with the destruction of enemies and bloodshed: absolutely. Psychopaths incapable of anything other than killing anyone and everyone around them: no.

I base this, beyond the same fluff you have no doubt seen, upon the simple fact that I could field a Flesh Tearer army and fight alongside my fellow Marine players, or Imperial Guard, without fear of rolling a dice at the end of the battle to see if I fall upon them and destroy them.

I acknowledge your view, and trust that you will also respect mine. This is scarcely worth getting worked up over.

Niqvah said:

Oh I never said they weren't still loyal. Neither did I say they were psychopaths incapable of anything other than killing. But on the battlefield they are what the lore says they are: bloodthirsty berserkers who can't really be trusted. By no means does that make them one-dimensional, which seems to be your concern. Far from it.

OH YEAH Space Wolves!!!!!!!!!!!!! We need to play this in our group!