Greetings, Deathwatch fans!

This week's designer diary reveals the first Space Marine Chapter for the Deathwatch RPG. Enjoy!

Space Wolves: check.

Additional canon Chapters plus DYI Chapters in the future: check.

This insight may tick off a lot of people looking for more obscure chapters in the initial offering, but I applaud this since the popular chapters are popular for a reason.

Good to know there is a design your own Chapter...chapter in the future.

Smurfs may be back in...

LeBlanc13 said:

"Brothers form ranks. It is time to chant the Emperor's most dreaded of battle-hymns as we crush His enemies."

And suddenly, over the sound of cannon and shot could be heard a most fearsome sound; growing ever louder, ever closer.

"... la la, lala lala, La Lala LALA..."

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

Brother Praetus said:

You just could not resist the temptation ? Now I will not be able to sleep as that horrible tune echoes through my skull during the midnight hours...

Smurfs or not, the boys of Blue and white look good on the tabletop. Especially if you use the 2nd companies gold trim.

Aajav-Khan said:

And who could forget these other 40K hits? Songs like It's a Khorne World after all (Small World) by The Flesh Hounds; or This is the Plague that Never Ends (Song that...) performed by The Nurglings. That's right, 7 of the greatest hits Chaos has to offer on this 6 disk set; yours for 9 easy payments of 8 Thrones each.

Capture it for Chaos today!!!

-=Brother Praetus=-

LeBlanc13 said:

Which is, oddly enough, the same reason I find them so boring: they have a lot of exposure.

Atheosis said:

Agreed. But in FFG's defense, they are somewhat obligated - by the vagaries of marketing - to include at least some of the most popular chapters, IMHO. With that in mind, though, I hope they include at least a few obscure (or even newly developed) chapters in the core. I know they have now confirmed that it will be possible (supported in the rules) to create your own chapter. But there are so many already out there that have absolutely NO backing lore, it would be nice to see a few of them better-developed.

Then again, the most popular chapters are popular for a reason.

So, I suppose my only real gripe is that we were only given ONE chapter in this week's DD.

Sister Cat said:

I was hoping so as well, but reality has pretty much set in for me. On the front page they have a Dark Angel and a Blood Angel, and now they reveal Space Wolves. That's three of the five big Chapters (Chapters that have their own codexes [yes I'm including the Ultramarines seeing as the Space Marine codex was really the Ultramarines codex]). So you can see why I'm pretty much convinced they're going to do them all.

To be honest, and assuming I'm right, I'm either going to put playing DW off until they release the DIY rules, or I'm going to have to come up with something myself. Because I honestly can't begin to understand why a kill-team on the edge of the Segmentum Obscurus would be composed of Marines from all those Chapters.

I don't see any real issue with using the Chapters they've got listed as "Archetypes" until the DIY rules are out. Anyone else?

Kanluwen said:

I wouldn't assuming they aren't too specific. The problem is that I expect them to be pretty specific. There will likely be rules for the Canis Helix when it comes to Space Wolves, and likewise for both Black Rage and Red Thirst when it comes to Blood Angels. If they do Black Templars, they'll probably put in rules for the oaths (or whatever they're called) they make before each battle. Such specifics pose problems when trying to use the Chapters as archetypes.

On the upside, the Ultramarines will function perfectly in such a role (unless they give them bonuses against Tyranids or something).

Atheosis said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Ultramarines started with the Hatred: Tyranids talent.

I don't really see any problems with those, barring the Space Wolves(who are as far as I know, the only First Founding Legion/Chapter that has no actual successor Chapters), seeing as how most of them are very generic archetypes.

You've got the Ultramarineswho are a Codex adhering Chapter, with the possibility for specializing in combating Tyranids (with how widespread the Tyranid menace has been, the Ultras can be used to sub in for any number of Chapters. Scythes of the Emperor immediately pop into mind) and also have the highest amount of successor Chapters from what I can recall. I'd also say that if the rules for Tyranids as a "Hated Foe" are generic enough, you can replace it with Ork, Kroot, Tau, etc.

You've got the Black Templars, who're a fleet-borne Crusading Chapter...which we've been told is actually a pretty common thing for the Astartes to do. Their Oaths for the campaigns are pretty similar to the Oaths of the Moment that pretty much every other Chapter takes before a campaign...just the Black Templars take them far, far more seriously.

Blood Angels can be used as an archetype for a Chapter with a minor instability in their geneseed that leads to uncontrollable berserker rages and fits of madness, but otherwise a fairly standard Codex Chapter with a bit more emphasis on close combat. That's an easy one.

Dark Angels have a huge number of successor Chapters, with very little deviation from the Codex Astartes(barring the obvious Ravenwing/Deathwing differences to the Codex Astartes). All of the Unforgiven Chapters are sworn to upholding the same dirty secrets that the Dark Angels are trying to repent for, with the successor Chapters being initiated into the same mysteries that the Dark Angels Inner Circle are. Hell, some of the successors of the Dark Angels were founded explicitly to hunt specific Fallen. The Disciples of Caliban are the best example therehaving been founded to hunt down Cypher exclusively. So in the Dark Angels you've got an archetype for a secretive Chapter that's hiding something big, but still playing nice unless it directly conflicts with concealing their secret.

I'd write more, but I really need to get back to painting

Kanluwen said:

I think you and I differ on what an archetype is. As far as I'm concerned archetypes should be things like feral/barbaric Chapter, close-combat specialist Chapter, generalist/codex Chapter, stealth/guerilla tactics Chapter, etc. Each archetype should have within it various options to allow for customization. It seems instead that we are getting a much more rigid and specific system.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that if I want to run DW and have any real variety in the Chapters (and to me creating a Blood Angel, with all those Blood Angel-specific bits, and then renaming it isn't real variety) available to my players I'm going to have to write up my own rules or wait until they come out with the Chapter supplement they're promising.

I'm more of the opinion, I guess, that you need some form of restriction with the archetypes then. You need *something* to build from. A successor of the Blood Angels is going to have that gene-seed instability, and will generally tend to favor their same tacticsjust like the Dark Angels and Ultramarines' successors will also take similar approaches/traits. The only one I'll really give you is the Black Templars. They're a ridiculous offshoot of the Imperial Fists that took on an admittedly far more interesting than their progenitor approach to the tenants laid down by Dorn.

It's kinda hard to explain, but what I've always seen as the "archetypes" fit quite nicely with the last edition's Codex's traits. You had the zealots, the secretive Chapters hiding some dark secret, etc. There's really no room for "close combat oriented" Chapters in the standard Codex. It's why we have Blood Angels/Black Templars as Codexes...because they're divergent enough to make it interesting.

Kanluwen said:

Being a successor to a Chapter doesn't mean you have the same culture or character as that Chapter. That's not how the founding of a Chapter works. Second founding Chapters aside (which are probably what you are thinking of), a Chapter is merely founded using certain geneseed. That Chapter more likely than not isn't going to have any real contact with their parent Chapter. They will however inherit any geneseed mutations. They may likewise develop new mutations. Their culture and character however is likely to be unique. For instance, while most Chapters are founded with Ultramarines geneseed, that doesn't mean they are necessarily going to be a codex Chapter.

Atheosis said:

And being a successor to a Chapter doesn't mean you're going to wildly cut all ties and learnings from the parent Chapter either. I'm using the examples I can think of off the top of my head of actual, fluff established Successors versus the fan-created Successors and the like.

New mutations are very rare, and tend to come about through extremely oblique circumstances like "Chaos did it!" or an inherent instability in the geneseed manifesting itself in a new way. And I really really wouldn't say that a Chapter's culture or character tend to be unique. Look at any number of the Ultramarines successors. They, for the most part, tend towards adopting the same martial culture, tactics, squad compositions, and naming conventions. You know...the 'important' things.

But then you get those Chapters that have something disastrous happen to them where they then have to adapt to the new circumstances and go from there(Scythes of the Emperor's low recruitment rate and lack of geneseed resulted in them seconding more troops to the Deathwatch so that, while they are effectively a dead Chapter, their importance to the Deathwatch and Inquisition is bumping them up priority-wise) and you get the makings of a divergent Chapter.

I'm getting what you mean, Atheosis I guess I just don't see it the same way. Alot of the divergences that you seem to want are in fact not really divergences, just different applications of the standard Codex Astartes principles.

(apologies for being late to the party) Wow, one chapter per DD. Who didn't see this one coming?

Snarky comments aside, an interesting gem in my mind were the rules for creating your own chapters slated for release in a later book. Not bad, and it saves FFG from having to find a way to cover EVERY possible chapter to appease the fanboys. Still not sold on the RPG but we'll see once the product starts cropping up in stores by late november if the release doesn't get post-ponded

Edit: And fifty thrones says that once the rules for player created chapters come out, someone will invariable make the Angry Marines.

Kanluwen said:

You're thinking of Second Founding Chapters. Most of the Angel Chapters are either Dark Angels or Blood Angels Second Founding Chapters. Most of the "these guys love the Ultramarines" Chapters are Second Founding as well. Being Second Founding those Chapters often are very close to their parent Chapter in character and culture. The thing is that the vast majority of Chapters are 3rd founding or later, and if the Second Founding Chapters are like beloved children then the rest are more like the offspring of a sperm donor. A Chapter is founded with certain geneseed (most often Ultramarines) usually for a particular purpose, and that purpose will rarely ever have anything to do with the Ultramarines or the region of the Ultima Segmentum where they reside. That means that that Chapter will likely develop its own character and tendencies, and while every Chapter is founded with intent of it following the Codex Astartes some drift away from it and start doing their own thing. If anything, they are most likely to emulate whatever Chapter was made responsible for guiding their early development immediately after their founding (the info on this process is scant to say the least).

Yeah, gotta say, the fact we aren't going to get the 'other Chapter creation rules' until ... what? 2011? Maybe. Makes me think I may just wait till then before thinking about, or buying, this game.

Those rules needed to be in the core rulebook and I cannot see a good reason why they're not going to be. At the least they could have dropped one or two (or more) of the starting Chapters they are going to detail and used that space to include those rules, that they aren't doing that (surely sensible) thing smacks of commercial reasons over good game sense to me.

The lack of that ability to play a member of any Space Marine Chapter is a deal breaker for me. For the time being at least ... so I shall bow out of this board I think for now.

Atheosis said:

Exactly. Canon sources shed little light on how an X Founding Chapter gets started. How is the initial training and equipping handled? Presumably a new Chapter gets a cadre of veterans from an established Chapter to acts as its initial officer corps. Similarly some small amount of equipment might get donated to the new Chapter from the "adoptive parent". The majority would be purposely built and set aside for the new Chapter by Imperial authorities (AdMech etc. ).

How are the Blood Angels a chapter with a minor mutation? They have fangs and suck blood.... VAMPIRES isn't an abomination more so than the canis helix?

That being said, I feel the Blood Angels are a chapter that I really want to sink my teeth into when they come out....

Mwuah-hah-hah!

Since when did the Blood Angels suck blood? Theier Chapter rites often include drinking blood, if I recall, but that's not exactly unheard of in the Imperium. Hell, the Dark Angels do it every year at the Feast of Malediction