On 3/26/2018 at 7:13 AM, Donovan Morningfire said:

Plus, you've got Anakin who was conceived by the Force.

Though to pull from a different franchise, it's possible that Force-sensitivity is not unlike the gene for magical ability in the Potterverse, where you can have witches and wizards born to muggle families that haven't the faintest clue about magic. Hermione Granger for instance is muggleborn with no particular magical ancestry, and yet is one of the most broadly capable students in her year, outshining a number of half-bloods and purebloods. But by the same token, you've got squibs, or folks born to magical parents without a bit of magic in them.

So it could well be that while Force-sensitivity is a genetic trait, just that it's not a dominant one, with it being entirely possible for family lines with no history of doing so to suddenly produce a Force-sensitive child; Ezra Bridger for instance, who based on what we know doesn't have any famous Jedi ancestry. And as you said, since the Jedi weren't going around producing babies, new recruits to the Order had to come from somewhere.

This.?

9 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Not to bring real life religion into this, but the Force had some messed-up plans for being balanced again if they consisted of creating a kid and making it suffer for most of its life so it could do the thing at the right time.

That's assuming that the Force has plans. Just because we are told that the Force has a "will," doesn't mean it makes plans about the future or has any sovereignty in enacting those plans.

3 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

That's assuming that the Force has plans. Just because we are told that the Force has a "will," doesn't mean it makes plans about the future or has any sovereignty in enacting those plans.

Yeah, I've always seen that "will of the Force" thing to be more along the lines of a quasi-Buddhist/quasi-Zoroastrian "what the universe wants" sort of thing. Not really an active, decision-making intellect, but more along the lines of a general cosmic rule of thumb, akin to "nature abhors a vacuum" or "evolution has designed the shark to swim really fast". Neither nature nor evolution have an actual conscious will, but the natural forces working within them tend to shape and mold certain things a certain way, which can appear to be by conscious design.

EDIT TO ADD: Or crystals. Nobody actually designs crystals - they form due to the natural properties of the substance that make them up, but we colloquially refer to the "design" of a snowflake or a geode.

3 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

That's assuming that the Force has plans. Just because we are told that the Force has a "will," doesn't mean it makes plans about the future or has any sovereignty in enacting those plans.

Alledgeing the Force conceived Anakin immaculate conception style certainly implies an intent to make something happen and having the sovereignty to create a human life. I choose not to believe that since it’s too hokey for me, but since it was brought up...

40 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Alledgeing the Force conceived Anakin immaculate conception style certainly implies an intent to make something happen and having the sovereignty to create a human life. I choose not to believe that since it’s too hokey for me, but since it was brought up...

I think that's where the Jedi got caught up in mysticism and pushing their ideology. So too for the Sith. Qui-Gon Jinn thought the Force conceived Anakin on its own, whereas Palpatine intimated that Plagueis organised it. We don't really know which, but even if the Force did create Anakin off its own bat, that still doesn't necessarily imply that it's a conscious choice. It could be something the Force does from time to time, or that the "Mortis Gods" have such understanding/power of/over the Force that they are able to direct such things.

(Incidentally - and don't take this personally, it's just a common error that tweaks my nose for some reason - the "immaculate conception" was not the virgin birth of Jesus, it was the conception of Mary without original sin. I know, I know, unimportant in the grand scheme of things, but I like to keep mythologies straight when possible! )

5 minutes ago, Daronil said:

(Incidentally - and don't take this personally, it's just a common error that tweaks my nose for some reason - the "immaculate conception" was not the virgin birth of Jesus, it was the conception of Mary without original sin. I know, I know, unimportant in the grand scheme of things, but I like to keep mythologies straight when possible! )

Unless I misremember Shmi didn’t claim to be a virgin, only that she became pregnant without a father being involved - which Qui-Gon interprets as a higher power (in this case the Force) having intervened. The comparison isn’t spot-on, but still works somewhat.

1 minute ago, nameless ronin said:

Unless I misremember Shmi didn’t claim to be a virgin, only that she became pregnant without a father being involved - which Qui-Gon interprets as a higher power (in this case the Force) having intervened. The comparison isn’t spot-on, but still works somewhat.

Oh, yeah - I knew what you meant. I was just referring to the concept of the immaculate conception is often misattributed to the virgin birth (or the "fatherless conception", shall we call it?). I was just pointing out that the iC actually has nothing to do with a virgin/fatherless conception. Anyway...I don't want to sidetrack the discussion; I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it.

57 minutes ago, nameless ronin said:

Alledgeing the Force conceived Anakin immaculate conception style certainly implies an intent to make something happen and having the sovereignty to create a human life. I choose not to believe that since it’s too hokey for me, but since it was brought up...

It doesn't imply any such intent—unless explicitly indicated, intent is inscrutable. You can infer intent, but you can't unequivocally confirm it if you're not the entity in question.

Also, sovereignty doesn't speak to the ability to create life, but (at least in the cosmic sense we're using) the power to sustain it and direct events to an intended end. And that gets into the whole free will argument which is probably left well enough alone.

I'm just saying, assuming things like "a plan" can open a whole buncha cans of worms ?

4 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

I'm just saying, assuming things like "a plan" can open a whole buncha cans of worms ?

From Qui-Gon’s POV, the Force set something in motion that will result in the prophecy of the Chosen One being fulfilled. That certainly smacks of a plan to me. Choosing someone presupposes intent, no?

This was more relevant to the first page of this thread, but if you're pondering if you need to be full of fleshy bits to use the force, keep in mind there are at least two species of rock with force based powers (Shards/Iron Knights, and I forget the other)