On 3/12/2018 at 12:09 AM, HistoryGuy said:

I think there was something about it in the Episode III book. I with double check and post tomorrow.

I've been in the middle of moving and misplaced the book but I finally found it.

"And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow... you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf... and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode... in the end, you cannot touch the shadow."

11 hours ago, LordEnforcer said:

First off if a gm wants players with cybernetics to use lightning he can always find a way to justify it. I will withdraw my reasoning about needing flesh... but if you have cybernetics and use lightning there should be a huge change of shorting out your cybernetic arms... lol I thin now the conversation is closed!

this is from wookepedia:

Keep in mind, though, that the canonical proof for this is scant at best. All we have is a short sentence in Rise of Darth Vader saying "his arms and legs were mechanical, and he could never cast Force Lightning". It doesn't even say, "because his arms and legs were mechanical, he could never cast Lightning", so if I wanted to be really difficult, I could say that it was just a list of unrelated disabilities he had, and that his inability to cast Lightning was because of something else. And the part about him being unable to cast the power because his mechanincal limbs would short-circuit. DarthMRN 02:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• George Lucas has confirmed this theory, and in fact it originated from him. And although we may not like it, his word is as canon as the films themselves. So there's your confirmation. If Vader casts lightning he would short circuit his cybernetics and disable his life support 24.3.202.85 16:50, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

And this is why Disney getting the Star Wars brand was arguably the best thing that happened to it. They were slopped produced then, it's sloppery produced now, but at the very least they aren't going in their back catalogue every few years to bloody change everything, just to satisfy one's ego in their control over their pet project.

Yup, Luca's being released from his ball and chain was probably the best thing he could do so he could be freed from the chains of production. XD

On 3/15/2018 at 4:22 PM, KungFuFerret said:

Heh, well to be fair, I do think there is some level of "minimum meat" someone has to have to use the Force, otherwise the "Droids can't use the Force" wouldn't be a necessary distinction. But we know that Vader's 4 limbs were all cybernetic, so it's not necessary to have actual flesh limbs to use the Force. I personally don't like to get into metric debates about "minimum meat" though, and prefer to keep it vague and numinous like the Force itself.

I think a lot of this issue is from fans trying to backfill In Universe justifications for things that were simply due to "because it's a movie." And there isn't any internal logic for it, other than what I stated above as the likely reason for xcvhim not using lightning.

We can argue all day about "It's because his cyber limbs would short out!" or "Because he wasn't as dark and twisted as the Emperor, and thus hadn't learned the true depths of the power of the Dark Side, which is why he was still able to be redeemed." But in the end, I think the most likely answer is "Lucas wanted to display a new power that would make the audience go "Oh Crap!", and thus we have lightning"

The reason they cant have midis are they are not a living organism!

3 minutes ago, LordEnforcer said:

The reason they cant have midis are they are not a living organism!

I never once said anything about midis, why are you quoting me and saying that?

6 hours ago, LordBritish said:

And this is why Disney getting the Star Wars brand was arguably the best thing that happened to it. They were slopped produced then, it's sloppery produced now, but at the very least they aren't going in their back catalogue every few years to bloody change everything, just to satisfy one's ego in their control over their pet project.

Yup, Luca's being released from his ball and chain was probably the best thing he could do so he could be freed from the chains of production. XD

I do not agree with this..Disney getting the is so far hit and miss.. 7 and 8 were TERRIBLE and basically SUCK.. Rogue One was pretty good so is Rebels.. btw 9 will suck as well!

1 minute ago, KungFuFerret said:

I never once said anything about midis, why are you quoting me and saying that?

for some reason the forum quotes the wrong reply

On 17/03/2018 at 5:16 PM, LordEnforcer said:

The reason they cant have midis are they are not a living organism!

According to our universe. Star Wars operates on a different assumptions, thats the basic principle of science fantasy, not everything makes sense in our universe but it can make sense in theirs.

On 17/03/2018 at 5:21 PM, LordEnforcer said:

I do not agree with this..Disney getting the is so far hit and miss.. 7 and 8 were TERRIBLE and basically SUCK.. Rogue One was pretty good so is Rebels.. btw 9 will suck as well!

I thought 7 was alright if extremely vague, 8 was better (for being unexpected and exploring some of the concepts.) but both were relatively tame movies. I also felt that 8 lacked a compelling hook and sinker for Finn, and both featured Phasma who was a bit of a walking disaster that was a huge waste of the actress in all honesty. XD That and the most irritating aspect is that they are inventing tons of alien species for no good reason. Chewie aside, there are almost no aliens that could be identified either in the OT or PT.

Rogue 1 meanwhile I felt was a fairly unenjoyable movie for me, awful initial pacing, the introduction of a novel bunch of nut jobs that have little connection and a pro-tag that had less character then a bowl of shredded wheat (Jyn literally preformed personality flips every other scene. She managed to be more irritating then Rey to I.) The main good things about that mess was that it provided a fascinating back drop to the death star, K2-SO and Cassian (which was a fairly compelling double act) and a epic battle. That's literally all the movie had going for it in my opinion, I was promised a war movie, I got a bunch of generic adventurer archtypes assembled by a bunch of tropes and ton's of fan references.

My opinion of course, in the same way that Phantom Mence got Luca's vibe for world creation down, but missed the mark on pacing by a mile, the clone wars was an extreme slow burner with an unbelievable romance, or that a New Hope was extremely slow and quite tedious for a movie. If it wasn't for the fact I played RPG's quite regularly, I probably wouldn't be much of a fan of star wars.

On 3/11/2018 at 9:09 PM, HistoryGuy said:

I think there was something about it in the Episode III book. I with double check and post tomorrow.

Yeah this doesn't help our current understanding though, since it's old canon and had to be congruent with all the rest of the EU.

I don't even know why midichlorians are being discussed, as basically nobody ever mentions them, like ever. They're not a mechanic in the FFG system (and I don't think they've ever been mentioned in the books either, though I haven't read them all so I could be wrong). They were never mentioned in the new films, and have basically been relegated to the Dusty Top Shelf of Forgotten Ideas where they belong.

As for whether or not cybernetics effect force use, again, there are no rules in the FFG system saying they do. Citing a response from Lucas that he made, likely years later, and likely retconned his own rationale to make it seem like he had a big plan the whole time, still doesn't change the fact that, aside from House Ruling in some limitation, cybernetics don't effect the Force, period.

If a GM wants them to, sure, go ahead and add another metric to track, though from my own experience playing Shadowrun, which did this very thing with Humanity score, I'd rather not have another number I have to deal with. I'm already easily distracted, and don't like spending time tracking numbers, when I could actually be telling a compelling story.

3 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

I don't even know why midichlorians are being discussed, as basically nobody ever mentions them, like ever. They're not a mechanic in the FFG system (and I don't think they've ever been mentioned in the books either, though I haven't read them all so I could be wrong). They were never mentioned in the new films, and have basically been relegated to the Dusty Top Shelf of Forgotten Ideas where they belong.

Midichlorians are discussed and explained in the Clone Wars, a Canon animated tv series that aired between 2008 and 2014, that was created and overseen by George Lucas.

Basically they are just what help living beings communicate with the Force, they themselves are not really a measurement of Force potential.

As it is with TLJ making it pretty clear anyone has the potential to be trained in use of the Force, the midichlorians only matter in the respect that prequel-era Jedi believed in scientific methods more than faith, showing they were losing their way.

15 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

Midichlorians are discussed and explained in the Clone Wars, a Canon animated tv series that aired between 2008 and 2014, that was created and overseen by George Lucas.

And yet no mention anywhere else, almost like everyone was simply humoring George about his very stupid idea.

16 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

Basically they are just what help living beings communicate with the Force, they themselves are not really a measurement of Force potential.

I'm well aware of what they say they do, as it was explained in Phantom Menace in the 90s. But they do measure them in Phantom Menace, and lose their mind because Anakin's numbers were Over 9000. So saying they don't act as a measurement of Force potential completely invalidates the canon of Phantom Menace, establishing Anakin as a Vergence because he had such high numbers.

18 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

As it is with TLJ making it pretty clear anyone has the potential to be trained in use of the Force, the midichlorians only matter in the respect that prequel-era Jedi believed in scientific methods more than faith, showing they were losing their way.

*blinks* What? So you're now claiming that the downfall of the Jedi is because they embraced science and not the True Faith of the Force? I...I just....

I don't understand why people focus on "TLJ has made it where anyone can be a Jedi! Not just a Skywalker!" Yeah? At no point in any of the films did they ever declare Luke was the last person to be able to use the Force. Heck the prequels clearly show hundreds of Jedi from all species using it. So I don't really get how this is somehow "new stuff". The Jedi Order was destroyed, not every single person with the capacity to use the Force. I mean Rebels shows several people who use the Force, so it's even further established canon, not that that matters at all for a table top game.

3 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

Citing a response from Lucas

An unsourced claim, even.

50 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

1. And yet no mention anywhere else, almost like everyone was simply humoring George about his very stupid idea.

2. I'm well aware of what they say they do, as it was explained in Phantom Menace in the 90s. But they do measure them in Phantom Menace, and lose their mind because Anakin's numbers were Over 9000. So saying they don't act as a measurement of Force potential completely invalidates the canon of Phantom Menace, establishing Anakin as a Vergence because he had such high numbers.

3. *blinks* What? So you're now claiming that the downfall of the Jedi is because they embraced science and not the True Faith of the Force? I...I just....

4. I don't understand why people focus on "TLJ has made it where anyone can be a Jedi! Not just a Skywalker!" Yeah? At no point in any of the films did they ever declare Luke was the last person to be able to use the Force. Heck the prequels clearly show hundreds of Jedi from all species using it. So I don't really get how this is somehow "new stuff". The Jedi Order was destroyed, not every single person with the capacity to use the Force. I mean Rebels shows several people who use the Force, so it's even further established canon, not that that matters at all for a table top game.

1. You make a good point.

2. They really do nothing tbh because knowledge of them doesn't really change a thing, which is fine. They are part of the canon and more ridiculous things have happened from GL than midichlorians. If ignoring they were ever mentioned is better for your head canon, then more power to ya.

3. No, it's not the sole reason but it's certainly part of the equation. They focused less on the Force when their powers began to diminish. No doubt their powers were diminishing because they lost faith, grew complacent, among other things.

4. It's not NEW stuff, but it is the most recent piece of evidence regarding the fact that anyone could learn to use the Force. It's also the most prominent piece of evidence, both with Rey having come from nothing and with broom boy, also coming from nothing, using the Force, on-screen, in a movie, which a lot of people here tend to ignore the other parts of Canon and consider only films when speaking of Star Wars.

19 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

2. They really do nothing tbh because knowledge of them doesn't really change a thing, which is fine. They are part of the canon and more ridiculous things have happened from GL than midichlorians. If ignoring they were ever mentioned is better for your head canon, then more power to ya.

It has nothing to do with my head canon, they are just simply a useless bit of addition. They don't actually explain how the Force works, or more specifically why beings can use it. I honestly think he threw that line in there after he got tired of 30 years of rabid fans pestering him with questions like "Yes but HOW do they use the Force?! What is the mechanical function that lets them do it?! Explain in ABSURD detail because me and my friends have argued this for 20 years, and my entire self identity is based around this discussion!! SCIENCE THE FORCE FOR US NOW!!!!" Because you KNOW some fans were like that. And he was like "Ok fine, jeez, here, it's midichlorians. They're stuff in your bodies that let you use the Force. Will you shut up now?!?" And he totally forgot that saying "Because Midichlorians" is just as vague and un-explanatory as "Because Mystic Mumbo Jumbo" It didn't actually clarify anything, and just added another layer of pointless detail to something that is far more interesting when left vague and numinous. I honestly don't care if they are there are not, and I will use them as much as the canon material has used them when I'm GMing a game...which is to say not at all, and they won't ever really be mentioned. I just find them a really stupid bit of detail that bogged down an already floundering story, and didn't actually bring anything new to the table.

My point about measuring them though, is of note. Because if you say they said in the Clone Wars cartoon, that the midichlorians aren't a measure of Force potential, then that is directly in contradiction to the entire midichlorians introduction in PM. They went on at great length about how his readings were "off the charts, even higher than Master Yodas!!" which is clearly a measurement of potential. You don't compare the numbers to the most powerful Jedi Master alive in disbelief, if there isn't an implied message of Force potential. So if later they say "nah, they really don't do anything, and aren't a measure of anything." That's basically the subsequent writer saying "Yeah midichlorians are dumb, and I'm not going to include them in my story." Then wiped their hands of that plot element entirely.

27 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

3. No, it's not the sole reason but it's certainly part of the equation. They focused less on the Force when their powers began to diminish. No doubt their powers were diminishing because they lost faith, grew complacent, among other things.

No doubt? I'm sorry but I have lots of doubts about why, because it was never ever expanded on in the movies. We never actually see any examples of them losing their abilities. Not a single Jedi is shown trying to move something, it staying put, and them looking at their hand in shock and disbelief. We never see one of them not make their super jumps, etc. By all observable data shown to us, they were still working at 100% capacity up until they got gunned down. I don't understand the idea that "The Jedi were their own downfall, and brought it on themselves." It seems to overlook the Sith Lord who had been puppet mastering the entire galaxy for decades, pushing both sides to conflict and forcing the Jedi into a lose/lose situation. But that's a completely different derail debate, and we've already derailed this enough.

30 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

4. It's not NEW stuff, but it is the most recent piece of evidence regarding the fact that anyone could learn to use the Force. It's also the most prominent piece of evidence, both with Rey having come from nothing and with broom boy, also coming from nothing, using the Force, on-screen, in a movie, which a lot of people here tend to ignore the other parts of Canon and consider only films when speaking of Star Wars.

I don't know why anyone ever thought that anyone couldn't learn the force? Where was that ever stated? There are countless examples of people with Force powers who survived the purge, and it had been shown from the beginning that pretty much every species could use the Force. All of the Legacy stuff assumed this too, which is why Luke was able to find people (not his children) out in the galaxy and teach them as his New Jedi Order. It makes no sense to me how any fan would come to the theory that only the Skywalker bloodline is able to use the Force now. There is nothing to actually state that. If they want to say that "Luke is the Last Jedi, and if he doesn't pass on his teachings, the Jedi will vanish" sure that's fine. But the Jedi are just an organization. That's like saying "If all the Marines are killed off, noone with the ability to kick butt and do battle will exist."

But anyway, I think we've derailed this enough, so this is my last entry on this topic.

OT: Niman Disciple Forever!! *raises fist*

1 hour ago, KungFuFerret said:

1. It has nothing to do with my head canon, they are just simply a useless bit of addition. They don't actually explain how the Force works, or more specifically why beings can use it. I honestly think he threw that line in there after he got tired of 30 years of rabid fans pestering him with questions like "Yes but HOW do they use the Force?! What is the mechanical function that lets them do it?! Explain in ABSURD detail because me and my friends have argued this for 20 years, and my entire self identity is based around this discussion!! SCIENCE THE FORCE FOR US NOW!!!!" Because you KNOW some fans were like that. And he was like "Ok fine, jeez, here, it's midichlorians. They're stuff in your bodies that let you use the Force. Will you shut up now?!?" And he totally forgot that saying "Because Midichlorians" is just as vague and un-explanatory as "Because Mystic Mumbo Jumbo" It didn't actually clarify anything, and just added another layer of pointless detail to something that is far more interesting when left vague and numinous. I honestly don't care if they are there are not, and I will use them as much as the canon material has used them when I'm GMing a game...which is to say not at all, and they won't ever really be mentioned. I just find them a really stupid bit of detail that bogged down an already floundering story, and didn't actually bring anything new to the table.

2. My point about measuring them though, is of note. Because if you say they said in the Clone Wars cartoon, that the midichlorians aren't a measure of Force potential, then that is directly in contradiction to the entire midichlorians introduction in PM. They went on at great length about how his readings were "off the charts, even higher than Master Yodas!!" which is clearly a measurement of potential. You don't compare the numbers to the most powerful Jedi Master alive in disbelief, if there isn't an implied message of Force potential. So if later they say "nah, they really don't do anything, and aren't a measure of anything." That's basically the subsequent writer saying "Yeah midichlorians are dumb, and I'm not going to include them in my story." Then wiped their hands of that plot element entirely.

3. No doubt? I'm sorry but I have lots of doubts about why, because it was never ever expanded on in the movies. We never actually see any examples of them losing their abilities. Not a single Jedi is shown trying to move something, it staying put, and them looking at their hand in shock and disbelief. We never see one of them not make their super jumps, etc. By all observable data shown to us, they were still working at 100% capacity up until they got gunned down. I don't understand the idea that "The Jedi were their own downfall, and brought it on themselves." It seems to overlook the Sith Lord who had been puppet mastering the entire galaxy for decades, pushing both sides to conflict and forcing the Jedi into a lose/lose situation. But that's a completely different derail debate, and we've already derailed this enough.

4. I don't know why anyone ever thought that anyone couldn't learn the force? Where was that ever stated? There are countless examples of people with Force powers who survived the purge, and it had been shown from the beginning that pretty much every species could use the Force. All of the Legacy stuff assumed this too, which is why Luke was able to find people (not his children) out in the galaxy and teach them as his New Jedi Order. It makes no sense to me how any fan would come to the theory that only the Skywalker bloodline is able to use the Force now. There is nothing to actually state that. If they want to say that "Luke is the Last Jedi, and if he doesn't pass on his teachings, the Jedi will vanish" sure that's fine. But the Jedi are just an organization. That's like saying "If all the Marines are killed off, noone with the ability to kick butt and do battle will exist."

But anyway, I think we've derailed this enough, so this is my last entry on this topic.

OT: Niman Disciple Forever!! *raises fist*

1. I don't disagree, they are useless to the story. They add nothing to it and their introduction hasn't changed the way the Force works, really, at all.

2. What I mean to say is that they might indicate Force potential but they aren't definitive proof. If any character in the galaxy can learn to use the Force and train their powers, then the midi-chlorian count doesn't necessarily prove their potential. Nobody spoke of Obi-Wan's Midi-Chlorian count and that dude was BA throughout the series. Really, the entire introduction of them was as a hand-wave situation to explain why Anakin had no biological father because he was space jesus.

3. taken from Attack of the Clones:

Mace : I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.

Yoda : Only the Dark Lords of the Sith know of our weakness. If informed, the Senate is, multiply, our adversaries will.

If their ability to use the Force hasn't diminished, that conversation means nothing.

4. Probably stems from confusion about what the Midi-chlorians are when some people think that not everyone can learn to use the Force. Also probably comes from the fact that in the films, only Jedi and Sith are shown to wield the Force and if you're not a Jedi or Sith at the beginning, then you end up becoming one, so like the lightsaber, it's synonymous with being a part of one of those two religions. Hence why there were SO MANY people immediately calling Rey a Jedi and Kylo Ren a Sith after seeing TFA, despite both of them being a part of neither religion. All Force Sensitives =/= Jedi/Sith but all Jedi/Sith do = Force Sensitives.

I personally always felt that anyone could learn to use the Force if properly trained and several characters might even use the Force and just not recognize it or were too stubborn to accept that fact in themselves. It's just nice to have more solid evidence of that.

Anyway back on track, I believe I started a topic about this a little while back just to see what people thought regarding cybernetics and Force use. It's basically up to the GM and the group to determine how those two things interact in their games but as far as the canon, it seems that use of the Force does not diminish with loss of limbs. Vader is actually stronger in the canon once he dons the suit because he's no longer conflicted, he is fully immersed in the Dark Side, his pain and rage fuel his power.

Well, canonically, not just “anyone” can become a Force user. A person must be born sensitive to the Force in order to be capable of being trained. Force potential has always varied among the population. Some people had no Force potential. Others had a lot of it, and everything in between. Also, Force potential has also been established as being a trait passed down in bloodlines. In the old EU, we had not only the Skywalker bloodline, but also the Halcyon bloodline and the Sunrider bloodline, among others. So it makes sense that something in the genes would determine Force potential.

My take on TFA is that Snoke's line about "There has been an awakening..." suggests that during the Dark Times and the Imperial era there were precious few Force-users in the galaxy. Whether wiped out by the Empire or just because of some mystical cosmic pendulum swinging, there weren't many around. Then, around the TFA era, the Force awakens again, and the pendulum swings back the other way. Nobodies like Rey can become exceptional Force users, and even people like Finn, with no telling aptitude, can use it (the scene when he and Rey are talking over each other about how amazing it was when they escaped Jakku had all the hallmarks of characters doing stuff they had no idea they could do). And then, in TLJ, it's starting to crop up everywhere else, like the kid with the broom.

19 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Well, canonically, not just “anyone” can become a Force user. A person must be born sensitive to the Force in order to be capable of being trained. Force potential has always varied among the population. Some people had no Force potential. Others had a lot of it, and everything in between. Also, Force potential has also been established as being a trait passed down in bloodlines. In the old EU, we had not only the Skywalker bloodline, but also the Halcyon bloodline and the Sunrider bloodline, among others. So it makes sense that something in the genes would determine Force potential.

It has to be a lot more than bloodlines, though. I mean, the Jedi (at least in the Rise of the Empire Era) weren't off making many babies, so it would be pretty self-destructive for the Jedi to ban (or at least limit) reproduction if Force potential was mainly genetic.

Just now, Daronil said:

It has to be a lot more than bloodlines, though. I mean, the Jedi (at least in the Rise of the Empire Era) weren't off making many babies, so it would be pretty self-destructive for the Jedi to ban (or at least limit) reproduction if Force potential was mainly genetic.

Yes, it was more than just bloodlines. However, Force potential is and always has been a inheritable trait. That does not mean that only Force users beget Force users though. What it does mean, however, is that not everyone is capable of using the Force though.

12 hours ago, Daronil said:

It has to be a lot more than bloodlines, though. I mean, the Jedi (at least in the Rise of the Empire Era) weren't off making many babies, so it would be pretty self-destructive for the Jedi to ban (or at least limit) reproduction if Force potential was mainly genetic.

Plus, you've got Anakin who was conceived by the Force.

Though to pull from a different franchise, it's possible that Force-sensitivity is not unlike the gene for magical ability in the Potterverse, where you can have witches and wizards born to muggle families that haven't the faintest clue about magic. Hermione Granger for instance is muggleborn with no particular magical ancestry, and yet is one of the most broadly capable students in her year, outshining a number of half-bloods and purebloods. But by the same token, you've got squibs, or folks born to magical parents without a bit of magic in them.

So it could well be that while Force-sensitivity is a genetic trait, just that it's not a dominant one, with it being entirely possible for family lines with no history of doing so to suddenly produce a Force-sensitive child; Ezra Bridger for instance, who based on what we know doesn't have any famous Jedi ancestry. And as you said, since the Jedi weren't going around producing babies, new recruits to the Order had to come from somewhere.

8 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Plus, you've got Anakin who was conceived by the Force.

Though to pull from a different franchise, it's possible that Force-sensitivity is not unlike the gene for magical ability in the Potterverse, where you can have witches and wizards born to muggle families that haven't the faintest clue about magic. Hermione Granger for instance is muggleborn with no particular magical ancestry, and yet is one of the most broadly capable students in her year, outshining a number of half-bloods and purebloods. But by the same token, you've got squibs, or folks born to magical parents without a bit of magic in them.

So it could well be that while Force-sensitivity is a genetic trait, just that it's not a dominant one, with it being entirely possible for family lines with no history of doing so to suddenly produce a Force-sensitive child; Ezra Bridger for instance, who based on what we know doesn't have any famous Jedi ancestry. And as you said, since the Jedi weren't going around producing babies, new recruits to the Order had to come from somewhere.

I personally subscribe to the "I don't really care what the mechanics of it are, as the movies have never cared either, and it really doesn't impact the story in any way." school of thought about Force ability. If you're telling a legacy/heredity story, then having it be tied to bloodline is fine. If you're telling a story about people rising up from nowhere due to an "Awakening", then it doesn't matter.

The Force basically does whatever it wants (read: whatever the writer/director need it to), so trying to codify it seems an effort in futility to me. Besides, since it's frequently described as a Living Force, and it's implied that it's at least semi-sentient/conscious, there's no reason that the Force itself can't just change however it works because it wants to.

12 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Plus, you've got Anakin who was conceived by the Force.

9 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

Not to bring real life religion into this, but the Force had some messed-up plans for being balanced again if they consisted of creating a kid and making it suffer for most of its life so it could do the thing at the right time.

3 hours ago, nameless ronin said:

Not to bring real life religion into this, but the Force had some messed-up plans for being balanced again if they consisted of creating a kid and making it suffer for most of its life so it could do the thing at the right time.

Sounds like another pretty popular religion's plan on fixing it's own problems if you ask me.