From what I have learned of the Force it has to flow through a living thing in order to be used. Meaning it cannot be used by droids. As a result, I have read that Jedi with Cybernetic limbs have trouble using the Force. Are there any rules governing the use of cybernetics by Force Users or house rules?

No official rules.

Is there anything in the new canon about this? I haven't come across anything since the Legacy of the Force series. Always thought it seemed a bit odd, myself. After all, Yoda was talking about the Force being in a rock. So it's not like inorganic material blocks the Force or something.

And, ya know, Darth Vader...

I think there was something about it in the Episode III book. I with double check and post tomorrow.

Oh. Apparently this question was already asked. I just had trouble finding it before I posted. But its not letting me post the hyperlink.

In Legends, it used to be that cybernetics weakened your connection to the Force, with Darth Vader being the poster child for that. Plus, as was mentioned the Episode III Visual Guide noted (based upon remarks by George Lucas) that Vader's potential in the Force got chopped nearly in half due to all the cybernetics that were installed, likely due to lack of organic tissue limiting his ability to connect to the Force, and thus a driving reason why Palps wanted to "trade up" to Luke as his apprentice in RotJ. Vader's cybernetics were also said to be the reason he could never manifest Force lightning, as doing so would short out his systems and thus kill him.

The d20 Star Wars games had cybernetics give a penalty to Force usage based upon that belief, and as an aspect of game balance. I think WEG instead had it that cybernetic enhancements made earning dark side points (which were very bad) a lot easier, though simple cybernetic replacements (like Luke's hand) didn't incur such a penalty; WEG's approach was likely dictated by Kenobi's line in RotJ of how Vader was "twisted and evil, more machine now than man."

However, under the new canon, cybernetics have zero impact on one's ability to use the Force, and I believe the current story with Vader is that it's more a psychological cause (centered around massive self-loathing fueled by a major guilt complex I think) that he's not able to realize his full potential in the Force. As for Force lightning, again I believe the current stance is that it's more of a psychological block on his point than any sort of physical limitations.

As GM I allow Force PC to have/use cybernetics. Both Vader and Luke used cybernetic devices, so why not the PCs...

As for the notion that it somehow diminishes the connection to the Force, I think, is hogwash. In fact, Luke had cybernetics early and can be said to become more powerful than Vader. Furthermore, to me the Force is synonymous with having a soul, so it doesn’t matter how much cybernetics devices a character has.

One thing I have done is add cybernetics that are powered-by, draw-from, or enhance the Force. Mechanically they have to be fed black and/or white pips to work, give bonus black/white Destiny chits, etc. & of course give Conflict as expected. One particular device always draws a black pip automatically - the Player needs to use it, or the device does.

12 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

However, under the new canon, cybernetics have zero impact on one's ability to use the Force, and I believe the current story with Vader is that it's more a psychological cause (centered around massive self-loathing fueled by a major guilt complex I think) that he's not able to realize his full potential in the Force. As for Force lightning, again I believe the current stance is that it's more of a psychological block on his point than any sort of physical limitations.

Wait, I thought Vader's self-loathing was what made him super powerful, not weak?

I don't think cybernetics have any direct impact on force use, but person's state of mind might do. A character with cybernetics might well be weaker if they perceive themselves to be.

The particular thing with Vader's strength largely depends on how you see the duel. Vader is strong against most people, yet Luke was stronger still. Try as he might Vader couldn't really hold a candle to a man who wasn't even trying to seriously harm him. That might have not had much to do with his cybernetics, but rather due to his conflicted state of mind (he knew he had to kill Luke now the situation had developed like this, but felt very uneasy about it).

What is important however, is the living soul. Droids can't feel the force because technically they are not alive. People who have no will will likely have a reduced connection to the force as it requires a conscious effort to manifest, thus internal well being or alternatively a focus for emotion is essential for being strong in the force.

On 3/11/2018 at 10:14 PM, HistoryGuy said:

From what I have learned of the Force it has to flow through a living thing in order to be used. Meaning it cannot be used by droids. As a result, I have read that Jedi with Cybernetic limbs have trouble using the Force. Are there any rules governing the use of cybernetics by Force Users or house rules?

None of the cyborgs we've seen in the films, Luke, Anakin, and then Vader, showed any difficulty with using the Force because they had mechanical bits

I do not think it is hogwash... Vader could not generate Lighting not only because it would short out his system.. he had mechanical fingers and forearms... the force needs living tissue to function!

12 hours ago, LordBritish said:

I don't think cybernetics have any direct impact on force use, but person's state of mind might do. A character with cybernetics might well be weaker if they perceive themselves to be.

I'd agree with this.

In the case of Vader, when he's able to properly channel his anger and rage to fuel his power, he's a nigh-unstoppable juggernaut when it comes to the Force, as Rebels quite aptly showcased when he showed up to fight, having quickly stomped Kanan and Ezra into the dirt and only letting them escape as part of a ploy to destroy the larger Rebel fleet they were a part of. He didn't seem quite so effective against Ahsoka at first, as he still had positive feelings towards his old apprentice, and thus couldn't properly fuel his anger given his inner conflict. When Ahsoka pretty much robbed him of the chance to acquire the Sith holocron and thus the weapon the Malachor temple represented, that inner conflict gave way to rage and frustration, and upon seeing the rest of the fight it became clear that Ahsoka was doomed were it not for shenanigans.

Same thing happened with Luke, his own flesh and blood and last living remnant of his beloved Padme, on top of Vader not wanting to kill the boy as part of his scheme. Note that once Luke lands that hit to the shoulder, Vader gets awfully ticked and very soon after ends the Cloud City duel in a very decisive manner. During their rematch in RotJ, Vader's internal conflict was at its highest point while Luke wasn't, thus seriously impacting Vader's performance, and by the time Vader realized that Luke had become a very credible threat, it was much too late as Luke was in the midst of his berserker assault and the best Vader could do was try to defend himself against a foe that was in his physical prime, especially one that he really didn't want to kill. Had there been no familial connection between Luke and Vader, I don't think either duel would have gone nearly so well for Luke.

10 hours ago, LordEnforcer said:

I do not think it is hogwash... Vader could not generate Lighting not only because it would short out his system.. he had mechanical fingers and forearms... the force needs living tissue to function!

No, Vader didn't use lightning because Lucas wanted to have the Emperor pull out a previously unseen power to shock the audience, and to establish how dangerous and overwhelming he was. Cementing his persona as the all powerful force of evil, that could only be defeated by a Heroic Sacrifice.

2 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

to shock the audience

I see what you did there

4 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

I see what you did there

Actually that wasn't intentional, and I feel a bit disappointed in myself for not spotting that pun when I typed it. I love puns, I live for puns, I missed that one.

13 hours ago, LordEnforcer said:

I do not think it is hogwash... Vader could not generate Lighting not only because it would short out his system.. he had mechanical fingers and forearms... the force needs living tissue to function!

On top of my above post about why he didn't use lightning, by your logic, if you need flesh to use the force at all, which is what you said. Then he couldn't use Force Move either, and we see multiple examples of him using his cybernetic hand to force choke someone, or push them as Anakin. Not to mention he used those abilities just fine as Vader, almost fully robotic. So apparently the Force doesn't need flesh to work, or at least not flesh appendages.

4 hours ago, KungFuFerret said:

...if you need flesh to use the force at all ... Then [Vader] couldn't use Force Move either, and we see multiple examples of him using his cybernetic hand to force choke someone, or push them as Anakin. Not to mention he used those abilities just fine as Vader, almost fully robotic. So apparently the Force doesn't need flesh to work, or at least not flesh appendages.

@KungFuFerret I think this basically put an end to this whole thread! Well played.

36 minutes ago, theGameDesigner said:

@KungFuFerret I think this basically put an end to this whole thread! Well played.

Heh, well to be fair, I do think there is some level of "minimum meat" someone has to have to use the Force, otherwise the "Droids can't use the Force" wouldn't be a necessary distinction. But we know that Vader's 4 limbs were all cybernetic, so it's not necessary to have actual flesh limbs to use the Force. I personally don't like to get into metric debates about "minimum meat" though, and prefer to keep it vague and numinous like the Force itself.

I think a lot of this issue is from fans trying to backfill In Universe justifications for things that were simply due to "because it's a movie." And there isn't any internal logic for it, other than what I stated above as the likely reason for him not using lightning.

We can argue all day about "It's because his cyber limbs would short out!" or "Because he wasn't as dark and twisted as the Emperor, and thus hadn't learned the true depths of the power of the Dark Side, which is why he was still able to be redeemed." But in the end, I think the most likely answer is "Lucas wanted to display a new power that would make the audience go "Oh Crap!", and thus we have lightning"

This discussion has actually given me a fun idea for an NPC, a horribly mutilated cyborg, who was reduced down to just a heart and a brain, maybe some lungs, and lost most of his memory in the process. He spends most of his time just following the instructions he is given through is implants, "more machine now than man", but always feels like something is missing, until he eventually recovers his lost memories, and regains his ability with the Force.

....wow, I basically just described Robocop, but with Force Powers. Though in my head, the character is able to Save The Day by having an epic Forcegasm, stopping the badguy, but also killing himself in some massive Force Move usage or something. Literally bringing down the house in a redemptive Force usage with lots of trumpets and stuff.

This is why I love browsing these threads, they make for such good story material for me.

7 minutes ago, KungFuFerret said:

This discussion has actually given me a fun idea for an NPC, a horribly mutilated cyborg, who was reduced down to just a heart and a brain, maybe some lungs, and lost most of his memory in the process. He spends most of his time just following the instructions he is given through is implants, "more machine now than man", but always feels like something is missing, until he eventually recovers his lost memories, and regains his ability with the Force.

....wow, I basically just described Robocop, but with Force Powers. Though in my head, the character is able to Save The Day by having an epic Forcegasm, stopping the badguy, but also killing himself in some massive Force Move usage or something. Literally bringing down the house in a redemptive Force usage with lots of trumpets and stuff.

This is why I love browsing these threads, they make for such good story material for me.

Great character idea actually. I do agree that Lightning was introduced as a new Force Power to make the villian in the film more brutal than Vader.

As for Forcegasm... I think you coined something truely awesome!

First off if a gm wants players with cybernetics to use lightning he can always find a way to justify it. I will withdraw my reasoning about needing flesh... but if you have cybernetics and use lightning there should be a huge change of shorting out your cybernetic arms... lol I thin now the conversation is closed!

this is from wookepedia:

Keep in mind, though, that the canonical proof for this is scant at best. All we have is a short sentence in Rise of Darth Vader saying "his arms and legs were mechanical, and he could never cast Force Lightning". It doesn't even say, "because his arms and legs were mechanical, he could never cast Lightning", so if I wanted to be really difficult, I could say that it was just a list of unrelated disabilities he had, and that his inability to cast Lightning was because of something else. And the part about him being unable to cast the power because his mechanincal limbs would short-circuit. DarthMRN 02:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• George Lucas has confirmed this theory, and in fact it originated from him. And although we may not like it, his word is as canon as the films themselves. So there's your confirmation. If Vader casts lightning he would short circuit his cybernetics and disable his life support 24.3.202.85 16:50, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

On 3/15/2018 at 5:24 PM, KungFuFerret said:

This discussion has actually given me a fun idea for an NPC, a horribly mutilated cyborg, who was reduced down to just a heart and a brain, maybe some lungs, and lost most of his memory in the process. He spends most of his time just following the instructions he is given through is implants, "more machine now than man", but always feels like something is missing, until he eventually recovers his lost memories, and regains his ability with the Force.

....wow, I basically just described Robocop, but with Force Powers. Though in my head, the character is able to Save The Day by having an epic Forcegasm, stopping the badguy, but also killing himself in some massive Force Move usage or something. Literally bringing down the house in a redemptive Force usage with lots of trumpets and stuff.

This is why I love browsing these threads, they make for such good story material for me.

You are talking about another general grievous after his accident.. secretly at the hands of count dooku.. "heart and a brain, maybe some lungs"

On 3/15/2018 at 4:22 PM, KungFuFerret said:

Heh, well to be fair, I do think there is some level of "minimum meat" someone has to have to use the Force, otherwise the "Droids can't use the Force" wouldn't be a necessary distinction. But we know that Vader's 4 limbs were all cybernetic, so it's not necessary to have actual flesh limbs to use the Force. I personally don't like to get into metric debates about "minimum meat" though, and prefer to keep it vague and numinous like the Force itself.

I think a lot of this issue is from fans trying to backfill In Universe justifications for things that were simply due to "because it's a movie." And there isn't any internal logic for it, other than what I stated above as the likely reason for him not using lightning.

We can argue all day about "It's because his cyber limbs would short out!" or "Because he wasn't as dark and twisted as the Emperor, and thus hadn't learned the true depths of the power of the Dark Side, which is why he was still able to be redeemed." But in the end, I think the most likely answer is "Lucas wanted to display a new power that would make the audience go "Oh Crap!", and thus we have lightning"

correct on the droids because they do not have midis

28 minutes ago, LordEnforcer said:

correct on the droids because they do not have midis

Droids don’t have midichlorians because they can’t be force-sensitive, not the other way around.