24 minutes ago, svelok said:

If nobody's in cover/dodging/aiming, the better Rebel offense and the better Stormtrooper defense cancel out, and both put an equal amount of average unblocked wounds into the other. But if both sides spend an aim token; or the Stormtroopers spend an aim token, and the Rebels spend a dodge token; then the Stormtroopers come out slightly ahead in the trade.

(if I wrote my dice rolling script correctly, anyways)

I would think that this should be dependent on the number of minis in the fight. The stormtroopers don't gain anything from precise if there are less than 3 troopers and hardly anything if less than 4.

Just now, NukeMaster said:

I would think that this should be dependent on the number of minis in the fight. The stormtroopers don't gain anything from precise if there are less than 3 troopers and hardly anything if less than 4.

I ran it with squads of 4 or 5, yes.

4 hours ago, NukeMaster said:

The math on the stormtroopers does seem to indicate that FFG puts a premium on that red defense die.

It is probably just my imperial bias but it does look like for every imperial unit in the core set the rebel counterpart is just as good or better for cheaper. The demo game strait up gives the empire a 50 point advantage.

I guess we will have to trust their play testing and see how the meta data turns out.

Well yeah it is 300% better. (200% if you count the surge differences)

I think people are underestimating the efficiency of a DLT, the DLT troopers is the most point efficient thing in the game. The DLT has a range of 1-4, Impact 1, and rolls 2 red die, it tears things apart. Also a squad of 5 stormies avgs 1.875 dmg, throw in the DLT for an additional 1.75, making the avg dmg 3.625 compared to the Rebels 5 troopers producing 2.5 (for 5 troopers) plus 1.5 (from the z-6) bringing it up to 4, so you avg .375 less damage. Now the stormies will on avg save 2 of the 4 (50% block rate) making total damage taken 2, while the rebels would save (33.33% block rate) around 1.19625 taking around 2.4 damage. Stormtroopers on average win

My previous statement also fails to take into account the stormtroopers are significantly better at close quarter combat and utilizing grenades

5 minutes ago, garciaj113 said:

My previous statement also fails to take into account the stormtroopers are significantly better at close quarter combat and utilizing grenades

How are the Stormtroopers better at Melee or using grenades? All Corps infantry get 1 black die/model for melee and the grenade upgrades provide the same dice/model for each unit that can equip it.

stormtroopers have surges, this applies to all weapons they use, this means they have a higher chance of rolling successes in comparison to rebel troopers, reading the rules helps a lot

4 minutes ago, garciaj113 said:

stormtroopers have surges, this applies to all weapons they use, this means they have a higher chance of rolling successes in comparison to rebel troopers, reading the rules helps a lot

You know, since there is no context, I'm going to ignore the last 6 words of your statement and just say thanks for clarifying that you were counting their surge ability as your justification that Stormtroopers are "better".

5 hours ago, Squark said:

My take (as a fellow imperial player to be);

Vader vs. Luke: Vader is a lot pricier, but Master of the Force and a No-Panic bubble are both fantastic. He's not cheap (especially since I feel you need force push or force reflex), but he's definately stronger than Luke (40 points stronger? That's a bit less certain, I admit). His high point cost is going to limit imperial builds until we get Veers, though. Most of the objectives place a big emphasis on trooper units, and Vader+2 AT-STs can't field the trooper units it needs to compete on those objectives.

With Rally the likely hood of getting troops to abandon Luke is nearly the same as Vader. With average rolls it will take 9 suppression tokens to Panic troops around Luke, maybe you can get there with Master of Evil but I'm willing to bank on Luke's courage bubble.

4 hours ago, garciaj113 said:

I think people are underestimating the efficiency of a DLT, the DLT troopers is the most point efficient thing in the game. The DLT has a range of 1-4, Impact 1, and rolls 2 red die, it tears things apart. Also a squad of 5 stormies avgs 1.875 dmg, throw in the DLT for an additional 1.75, making the avg dmg 3.625 compared to the Rebels 5 troopers producing 2.5 (for 5 troopers) plus 1.5 (from the z-6) bringing it up to 4, so you avg .375 less damage. Now the stormies will on avg save 2 of the 4 (50% block rate) making total damage taken 2, while the rebels would save (33.33% block rate) around 1.19625 taking around 2.4 damage. Stormtroopers on average win

I do think the DLTs are going to be amazing.

Safe to say the Rebels and Stormies are quite evenly matched. While imperials have good heavy weapons that shouldn't be reflected in base troop points cost. FFG just values the stormtroopers better defence more and bumped them up a point imho.

Time will tell if they got it right.

Can't compare 2 speeders to an AtSt, you got to compare equal points so its 4 speeders with change.

At that point you have twice the firepower.

I don't know the AtSt just seems a little lack lustre.

11 hours ago, bageldrone said:

But if the rebel troopers have aim as well they're damage would be better than the storm troopers which would mean the storm troopers would be rolling more defence dice all of which are a 50/50

the more defence dice you make your opponent roll the better in this game

The higher damage value (only for ranged vs ranged) the more the rebels suffer from each removed mini.

Worse, in melee the imperials fight equal to rebels but have flat out better armor.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

The higher damage value (only for ranged vs ranged) the more the rebels suffer from each removed mini.

Worse, in melee the imperials fight equal to rebels but have flat out better armor.

No, Stormtroopers also have better fists (offensive surge).

1 hour ago, DarkTrooperZero said:

Can't compare 2 speeders to an AtSt, you got to compare equal points so its 4 speeders with change.

Who is trying to? Except you of course.

7 minutes ago, Orcdruid said:

Who is trying to? Except you of course.

Geez attitude much?

I do believe @Squark mentioned them.

8 minutes ago, DarkTrooperZero said:

Geez attitude much?

I do believe @Squark mentioned them.

Lol the second sentence was a clarifier against attitude. And @Squark typed AT-RT.

5 hours ago, Squark said:

-AT-RT vs. Speeder bike: Apples to Oranges. The Speeder bikes have a generalist weapon to the AT-RT's specialist hardpoint, but firepower-wise they're about equal until damage comes into play (The Scout Troopers have much better guns for out of arc attacks, though). Armor vs. Cover and defensive surges probably favors the AT-RT, but that's the price of mobility. The big difference is how damage affects them; After 3 wounds the Speeder bikes lose half of their firepower due to a casualty, but the vehicle damage roll is unpleasant and unpredictable, and can leave the AT-RT crippled if you get exactly the wrong result. Sometimes the result will be managelable, but sometimes the result will take it out of the game while it still has 2 hull left. It's not easy to say which is stronger, but I think there's not a clear winner here.

I liked your write up but didn't have time to comment on this part.

Again the AT-RT looks really good for it's points to me. It's surge to crit should not be under estimated. I'm really hoping it ends up being that in the hands of a regular player the AT-RT is usually better but in the hands of a good player the Speeders are really nasty.

2 hours ago, DarkTrooperZero said:

Geez attitude much?

I do believe @Squark mentioned them.

Like OrcDruid said, I was talking about the AT-RT, not the AT-ST. Not the first time sombody's missed the one letter difference I imagine, and probably not the last.

Comparing Speeder bikes to AT-STs is a whole 'nother ballgame. That one's going to come down to what you need to execute your plan.

1 hour ago, NukeMaster said:

I liked your write up but didn't have time to comment on this part.

Again the AT-RT looks really good for it's points to me. It's surge to crit should not be under estimated. I'm really hoping it ends up being that in the hands of a regular player the AT-RT is usually better but in the hands of a good player the Speeders are really nasty.

Surge to crit is nice, yeah. It makes the rotary blaster a viable if unpredictable anti-armor weapon in a pinch; 5 dice with (effectively) two crit facings gives you a little over a ~76% chance of getting at least once crit. That's not as good as the laser cannon or two speeder bike guns, but it's a better anti-infantry gun than either of those.

Dammit! Wrote this on my phone but couldn't post, and now this is a bit redudent. Ah well.

Remember that Stormtroopers get their hit surge on heavy weapons, too, and have significantly better heavy weapons (IMO). That is, even if they had the exact same heavy weapons as Rebels, they’d shoot them better thanks to the hit surge. Comparing the Rebel’s ion rifle with the Stormtroopers’ DLT-19, the Rebels have a 25% chance to miss each red dice, while the Stormtroopers only have a 12.5% chance. What’s more, the Stormtroopers can cheerfully fire it every turn. The rebels shoot it once and then hope they have time to reload the **** thing later. The amount of firepower that DLT-19 puts out is easily twice what the ion rifle does.

The Stormtrooper rocket launcher is also sweet if you still have a squad around it when it gets a good target (i.e. should be great in a larger game). You average squad puts 1, maybe 2 crits on a vehicle (1 from the DLT or ion rifle’s impact, and maybe one natural crit). A squad with the rocket launcher will put 3-4 crits on.

Better dice also like re-rolls, so aim helps there.

In our proxied experience we’ve found that Stormtroopers use a lot of aim, since 1. Dodge isn’t as good on them; 2. They don’t need it as much anyway, thanks to red-dice defence; and 3. Obviously it works better on them. With aim, they shoot just fine, and their already-good heavy weapons become excellent.

The other thing I think people might miss is that every dice has the same chance of a crit. Sometimes crits are all that matters (e.g. they’re in heavy cover, and you’re unlikely to get more than 2 vanilla hits, or the target’s armoured and you’ll reach your impact total already). White dice crit as much as black dice. And if you can re-roll three dice, your chance to crit goes up nicely.

Also remember all the other stuff shooting at them. On the early turns where you can’t afford to use an action (you’re moving and shooting) that red defence dice is the best defence, and the DLT is getting good value (remember, two very-likely-hits is almost an entire squad of Rebel Troopers-worth of firepower). Rebel’s Ion rifle often only gets a single shot through most of the game, and without dodge they die horrible fast, which can make it very difficult to reload the thing, or even move around much.

9 hours ago, NukeMaster said:

I would think that this should be dependent on the number of minis in the fight. The stormtroopers don't gain anything from precise if there are less than 3 troopers and hardly anything if less than 4.

Remember that Nimble doesn't do anything if you're only getting shot by one thing (i.e. in the opposing player's control). It also needs to be activated before they get shot - so you have order of activation issues, and if they just use a one-pip command cards there's a good chance they'll be able to get at least one good volley onto an important unit without dodge.

Aim is something you can always use when you need it.

Can't compare 2 speeders to an AtSt, you got to compare equal points so its 4 speeders with change.

At that point you have twice the firepower.

I don't know the AtSt just seems a little lack lustre.

(Well I confused myself there, ha)

There's also the volley-factor. Speeder bikes can only volley in pairs. An ATST can lob a huge amount of damage in one go. That's important for order of activation stuff, but especially because cover and dodge work *per volley*. If 2 separate speeder bike units shoot my nimble-dodge-suppression marker troopers in the open, they'll lose 4 hits (2 per volley). The ATST only loses 2. With the numbers generally being quite tight, you'll see that the two units of speeders look to have more dice on paper, but in effect do quite a bit less damage to important targets (and that's before counting incremental losses with the speeders).

Each bike unit has 2r 2b 2w, so you might be tempted to call it 4r 4b 4w, compared with the ATST (using main gun, light blasters and grenade launcher*) which has 3r 5b 3w. About the same firepower, right?

But attacking a rebel trooper unit with one cover and one dodge, for example: speeder unit 1 gets 3.75 hits, but fully 2 are avoided, leaving it with only 1.75. Second bike team does the same. Ends up with 3.5 hits total for the two units.

ATST attacking the same with everything: 6 hits. 2 avoided, leaving 4.

*...and if you add the grenade's blast, it also ignored cover, so you got 5 hits.

Now sure, for the cost you could have had an extra half a squad of bikes, buuuuut then we're looking at the decreasing damage output of damaged bike squads, their lack of armour, blah de blah.....

....but all of that seems to me to be pretty well balanced. Frankly, I want the ATST for Vader to hide behind.

5 hours ago, svelok said:

No, Stormtroopers also have better fists (offensive surge).

Well obviously. Armoured fists vs Rebel gloves?

u must have troopers in your army . they are Worth it ......

On paper, Stormtroopers and Rebel Troopers look about equal which is why its kind of confusing that Stormtroopers what ends up being signficantly more.

Luke and Vader feel like they're in a similar place. Luke is definitely a little worse; just probably not anywhere near 25% worse (or more since Vader has to pay for an amazing gun). Even Son of Skywalker ends up in play as something of a superior version of Implacable to a degree, though some of that comes down to the targets currently available for those commands.

I mean, Stormies are +1 point per mini, which is about as low a price increase as you can get for better defense die. Their offensive surge also really changes the tone of all their dice.

Also Rebels are probably being quite overcharged for the MPL Ion. Compare the price between it and the DLT Stormtrooper. Is Ion 1 really worth 8 points and a reload restriction?

The problem with the 1 point is that it adds up really quick. By definition its bare minimum +12 points and continues to add in the more you invest in them. The DLT is definitely their big draw as far as I can tell. Ion can be very powerful in pairs though. I'm actually kind of surprised in how expensive both of the exhaustible weapons are. It's even crazier comboed on the rocket launcher with the "can't move" restriction. The cheaper weapon for both units feels a lot more useful, even without saving you the cost of a trooper.

(Actually, I forgot Snowie speed, ha. So ok.... Ignore the Snowtrooper remark. The rest still stands! )

Stormtroopers are priced extra because they have access to the best heavy weapons, I reckon. I think it's there to encourage you to bring them as heavy weapon teams. If you're going to get a squad, bring a big gun, because they are in some ways hitpoints for that heavy weapon. Think about it: a squad down to two members (leader and DLT-19) still has about the same firepower as a ATRT with a laser cannon. A full squad of Stormtroopers with a HH-12 rocket launcher can realistically do 4 damage to a vehicle even without an aim (and they'll aim if they can). That is one of the most powerful anti-vehicle attacks there is, double the damage of any other squad we know of so far.

And PS: not moving isn't that bad. Ranges are huge in this game. Note that both weapons need a Ready action to fire a second shot (the rocket and the ion rifle, that is). That means you probably *can't* move on the second shot anyway, unless you got a free action from somewhere. And dodge is way more important to Rebels than Aim is to Stormies - but they cannot dodge, reload and fire in a turn. In our so-far-proxied experience, the rocket gets lobbed way more than the ion rifle.