Enough said. This thing wins games on its own, seriously. It could have been printed at 2/2 and it still would have seen play, but that 5 HP just makes it insane. Order have very few hard answers for it (save the new Vigilant Elector): Forced March/Pilgrimage/Banish etc. aren't ideal solutions as it'll either just return to play for the low cost of 2 resources, or serve as 2 power sitting in another zone for 2 initial outlay. It costs as much to Forced March it as it does to play.

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not complaining about this card, it's an auto-three-of in every Destruction deck I build, but the 5 HP makes it seriously difficult to get rid of. Two of these is a very difficult turn 2 for any deck to get around, and its not like most anti-rush tech can stop them (save for a total field wipe, which is basically just Troll Vomit, as any competent player can and will play around Judgement of Verena vs. Empire).

What are your views on these sexy little rats?

the same as yours !

Yeah, they're pretty ridiculous. Hence they served as the poster child for my power level of cards post a while ago.

Skaven are one of the best decks right now and the Elites are one of the big reasons (the Deathmaster and Greyseer are the other 2).

yeah, seriously [all of the above]....

I am really expecting some more witch hunters in future BPs as skaven (esp. clan moulder's elite) are so strong now....in war, defense employed is usually a result of the offense employed, and thus behind in the game...So i'd be surprised not to see some more witch hunters. But the two available force you to to build to defend against a particular opponent while that opponent can hurt everyone equally. On top of that, their costs are not equivalent for what they do. So yes them rats have a bite, but i see it as natural and expect them to be neutralized in the future (although there will be a separate threat by then

Just saying that perhaps the cards are being released purposefully, as intended by FFG people in charge of that, and theyre using the model of WWII Bltzkreigs....or their power was overlooked lol

I agree they are an auto in any Destruction deck at this point which does suggest they are overpowered. Maybe an Order support called "Rancid Cheese" -2 power to any Skaven in battlefield will balance things out?

In the group I play with, the Moulder's Elite stands out as one of THE top cards. They dictate the meta and force decks to counter them - or lose. Our Chaos control deck splashes Orc to get Lobbers/Vommit in an attempt to deal with this card alone - were it not for this card, that deck might get away with pure Chaos (or maybe DE splash) for spot removal coupled with Pestilence.

In some play sessions, it was nearly the case that if the skaven rush deck had one of these on the table - it won. If it didn't, it lost. I don't recall the exact #'s, but this statement was valid for almost 80-90% of the games involving our strongest rush deck, which is Orc/Skaven.

They are just a tremendous amount of HP for the cost. A Skaven rush deck without them isn't very scary....as there are many answers to low-HP rushers (Pestilence, B for the B God, Flames, Flies). Most of the other cards that fill a similar roll (which is a low cost, fast attacking unit) are all around 1-2 HP, with some standouts at 3 HP. But this guy, for 2 (and no loyalty cost) is a whopping 5 HP.

His drawback (as Clamaitus mentioned in his card power level post) isn't a drawback at all. He's meant to be played in offense-only aggro decks, and those decks know that if they start having to defend, they've already lost the game.

Chaplan said:

Brutal Offering is a very effective tool for controlling Blitz decks as well, but the insane HP on the Elite just mean its not the answer it should be versus the Skaven. The fact that Thanquol can already escape Brutal Offering + BftBG is just a slap in the face for Chaos, which is one of the slowest Destruction decks.

Also, Deathmaster Sniktch excels at taking apart units with Counterstrike and replaces the Gutter Runners added to a deck only for the purposes of fuelling Skaven keyword reliant effects, which removes another way to reliably pile the damage onto the Elite.

EDIT: Just thought, how many people are splashing Zealot Hunter / Vigilant Elector in their Order decks as counters to the Elite?

LordMalinari said:

I am. Both in my judement deck. it helps, but not as much as I'd like. Marius too. But I buy only 2 copies of anything. So i have 2 Vig Electors, 2 Marius, 2 Zealot Hunters. I'm glad I CAN get rid of the Clan Moulder's Elite with them...but not thrilled that i have to pay 5 resources with Marius. the Zealot Hunter & Vigilant Elector I typically have to save for Deathmaster Sniktch or Greyseer unfortunately. Pilgrimage does help on the Zealot Hunters as i run those, but they're usually hanging out in my hand waiting for the bad guys mentioned...and usually when the time comes to throw them down, theres so many **** rats that it really doesnt do much. I want the following neutral tactic in next BP lol:

Rat Poison. cost: 6

"Action: Destroy all Skaven Units in play. you take 5 uncancellable indirect damage."

Artemus Maximus said:

I think the Dark Elves have the best answer so far in their "Destroy all units that were involved in combat this turn" tactic from Assault on Ulthuan, and hopefully we'll see the same effect printed on a more targetted scale as well, but in all honesty they wouldn't print a cycle of battle packs with Skaven as a theme then print a card that directly hoses them and them alone

oh i know; i was kidding. and thanks, i forget about that tactic you mentioned

Artemus Maximus said:

Lol It's just a shame we have to wait until the end of the month for said answer, but c'est la vie. Can't wait for Assault on Ulthuan to be honest the Dark Elf / High Elf capital boards should have a massive effect on the game even without the rest of the cards.

LordMalinari said:

Nope, have to completely agree. I can't see any reason why they shouldn't be 3x in almost every destruction deck either. (Why does Juzám Djinn spring to mind when I see the card?)

If you get it in your opening hand, it's a great opening card to start the clock on the opponent, and even mid-game it's still a reasonable drop.

I'm not sure Zealot Hunter is a great anti-card either, but at least it'll see more play.

I think we have a few answer to this guy, but he's still a BEAST with 5 hp. In order to deal with him I had to come away from a "ping" Chaos/DE deck that tries hard to keep my own guys on the board (while futilely pinging away at a Moulder Elite), and change into a "supply heavy" deck that isn't afraid to wipe the board.

1) Blood for the Blood God. It deals w/ the rat VERY well if you suspect a Whaaag!! or Choppah may come online. Rat + a Choppah will hit itself for 4 if you use BfortheBG. Problem with Bftbg is that it's battlefield only, which means it can't hit the "flanks", where the pesky Greyseer likes to hang out.

2) Vigilant or Zealot Hunter. Not a great way to deal w/ them, as an above poster mentioned, but they're still an answer.

3) Call the Blood. This in conjunction with Flies/Flames/Pestilence/Nurg Sorc/Chosen of Tz all work vs. the elite, but when I tried it, I kept holding one in hand with no reliable ping, or I'd have a ping, and not be able to pull into this card...etc. I don't like having to have a combo "in hand" in order to deal with a fast card like the Moulder Elite. See: a human deck holding either a Judgement or a Will of the Electors, but not both.

4) Lobber Crew. It takes a little trickery to get it going (you need to make sure the Elite is the only thing on the board), but it does work.

5) Troll Vommit. You have to build around this card. A control deck looking to play this obviously needs to move away from creatures and rely more heavily on playing supports to its kingdom/quests. But, once this is done, you can deal with multiple rats at a time with 1 card.

6) Pestilence. In conjunction with other burns or Call the Blood, works fine....but it becomes very expensive to do 5 damage to an Elite.

I've seen people list Brutal Offering. I tried to run this for a while, and decided against it for the following reasons:

1) I have to have a creature with pretty substantial power in order to use this card.

2) I then have to sacrifice said creature.

3) It's unlikely you can sacrifice anything big enough to kill the elite with this combo, as you have only 1 card in excess of 4 power. (Yes, you could develop a Bloodthirster...Rip its head off...then sac it. But if you have time to set that up, you're very lucky, or your opponent is mentally AFK).

I chose to go with Pestilence/Fledgling Chaos Spawn to deal with anything in the battlefield at or under 2 HP, and then I use Pestilence/We Need Your Blood/Vile Sorcs to deal with the "flanks".

Another thing I changed to deal with rats: run them in your own deck. I'm not joking. My buddy is running a VERY fast Orc/Skaven deck that can burn a zone on turn one, and end the game on turn 2. It's brutal. I find I don't have time to set up Blood for the Blood God, or rely on pings to try and wear the Molder Elite down. We found that trying to do this was just so inefficient that it cost me whole games ( Flame of T, plus a Pestilence, plus a Blood for the Blood God, add in a Brutal Offering...you see the point. These spells aren't meant to deal with 5 HP guys.)

Instead I decided to run the rats myself. You can use your Deathmaster to pick off his Molder Elite (his rats + yours + a pestilence + Fledgling Chaos Spawn) and get board control back. You can then let your spot removal keep him from being able to keep his own Deathmaster on the board, which allows yours to snipe at will.

A turn 1 Vile Sorceress is also very nasty to deal with for a lot of "rush" decks (possible with a turn 1 Innovation). She can take a pestilence and stay on the board, and she really controls flanks well. A Vile on the board + a few pings in your hand is VERY strong when trying to keep a rush deck from killing you. It can't stop the Elite straight up, but she can force him to fight alone, as long as she kills anything else that comes down. And then if you can get a Lobber Crew in play, you can usually win the game.

The other option is to just save up for Troll Vommit on turns 2, 3, or 4, and take control of the game from there, which I think is probably the safest way to go until other board wipes are introduced into the meta.

First of all, I agree that this unit is somewhat stronger than it probably should have been.

Anyways, with my latest deck i prayed for my opponent to play them. Why? Because they were simple the best possible fuel for my anti-rush combo.

1. Grasping Darkness on Elite (If they have choppa its just better!)

2. Savage offering (of course on elite). Muhaha

If you think this combo is inconsistent, my experience speaks different. I managed to hit it countless times and against Skaven/Orc (+chaos) rush decks it was just devastating. And cant forget the feeling - in your face, you ugly skaven!

I was playing a Dark Elf control deck with just a very few Chaos cards in there (Spawn, Sadistic mutation, Pestilence and Brutal offering)

MichalKP said:

Though I applaud your strategy

Grasping Darkness is a 3 Cost (+2 Dark Elf Symbols) card you need to draw

and

Brutal Offering is a 2 cost (+1 Chaos symbol) card you need to draw.

While a great little combo, that combo costs at the very least 5 resources but probably 6 or 7 because of the dark elf symbols needed, but you may get lucky and place some early DE cards, and it relies on you drawing both cards.

While I think it's innovative, I think if I had 6 resources I'd rather just Troll Vomit (4 cost + 2 Orc symbols) and reset the board completely, clearing away a rush decks entire horde of early drops.

This isn't a criticism, as I like your combo, I just don't think it's effective as by the time you'll get 6 resources it'll be about turn 3, and most rush decks have dropped 4-5 mobs by then each and you'll almost certainly have a section buring already. Given that is probably the case I think going for a full board reset is probably a more effective strategy than sniping a single mob.

Bountyhunter said:

True...I also have a DE/Chaos deck with this combo in there - I dont have the option to add Troll Vomit as it's in my Orc deck. BUT i do also usethe new Offering of Blood. the 0 cost allows it to be played earlier, and it does help that deck.

Chaplan said:

Gief Invoke Khaine's Wrath, that's gonna be a beast of a card, mark my words >

LordMalinari said:

Ya...it'll be great for clearing the battlefield, but it won't impact the flanks at all. And if you want to gain board control, I really feel like you need to control all 3 sections of the field (or at least 2). If you just control the battlefield, but let a rush deck draw 3 cards a turn and with 5 power, it's still very dangerous.

But yes, Wrath will definitely be good if you're playing DE or a DE splash.

Chaplan said:

Yeah, but its a major answer to blitz, who will either have just support on the flanks, or Grey Seer Thanquol (who will hopefully be participating in the attack and thus dies to Khaine). It also stops Clan Moulder's Elite dead for three resources which is more can be said for most tactics; after that any collateral damage to your opponent's battlefield is just gravy.

Against Chaos / decks not running Choppas you'll hopefully have a couple of turns to maneuver over fast Orc / Orc+Skaven builds.

LordMalinari said:

Yep, this is true. I think a DE board will also be nasty for first turn Hate/We Need Your Blood on 1 HP creatures. DE board also means first turn Vile Sorc. It'll be interesting to test, that's for sure. AND it does a lot more damage than Blood for the Blood God, or Pestilence for comparable mana. Could be great!