Rebel Vader Counters: Plans A, B, and C

By GottaBadFeelingAboutThis, in Imperial Assault Skirmish

Darth Vader's an increasingly common sight in the meta. It's a disturbance in the Force, as if a million voices all went and saw the end of Rogue One, and then: Vader builds.

What's a scruffy-looking nerf-herder to do?

Here are some options:

Plan A : Avoid the Guy

Rebels are fast. They can grab crates and hustle. They can scamper ESab spies around. They can creep forward with Gideon, or get pulled back late in a mid-game round. Han can hide around corners and pot-shot the rest of the Imperial list. And your total-game strategy is to treat the center of the board like a table in Looney Tunes, forcing Vader to cross it and then playing a running fight around the edge, leaving somebody back as a hold-out sacrifice (alas, Alliance Smuggler, we knew him, Horatio!). Sure, you might get Force-choked for 3 from anywhere across the map ... but if your opponent wants to spend 13 points doling out 3 damage per round, you'll probably walk away smiling.

But what about Plan B? Actually taking Vader down?

Let's talk.

First of all, why is it so difficult in the first place?

Vader rolls 2 black dice. Ordinarily, we might call that an average of 4 blocks. But Vader gets a re-roll. So it's probably something more like 4.5 -- a pretty useless number. Plus, Vader has Zillo technique to block pierce, and can discard cards. So what does that leave? You need to be able to spike damage over 5, consistently, to kill Vader. How to do it?

Plan B : Rebels with consistent spike damage.

1) The popular RS Han Solo . With a re-roll himself, Han is often able to put 8-9 damage down. Against a static 5 blocks, a focused Han has a 20% chance of putting 4 through, 60% of 3, and 87% of 2 or more. Han's also a platform for Tools for the Job (Adding a red die gets you 7-9%, 6-34%, 5-64%, and 4-86%), and he can On the Lam away from Vader. If (when) Vader does close the distance, Han can survive a hit, possibly dodge, perhaps remove a die with Run for Cover , and shoot back with Return Fire . Even unfocused, Han can put a few damage through 5 blocks. Plus, you've got the unusual tactical possibility of focusing Han with 3P0, moving Han and taking a shot, then maneuvering Han elsewhere and re-focusing him for EoR with Gideon. A "finesse piece," as the saying goes, but a powerful one.

2) A family matter with Jedi Luke . Luke's damage output is a bit unpredictable, and he's going to rely on his built-in evade and a white die to cancel Vader's +2/pierce 3 surges, keeping Vader's damage output to an average of 5 (though Vader's basic rolls can spike Luke for as many as 8 (3%) or even 9 (fraction of a percent)). One con for Luke is that he hits Vader with pierce damage that can be zillo-mitigated. The plus side? Once tapped, the rest of your pierces become good again. Running Luke with ERangers might give you a reasonable hit-and-run strategy against the Lord of the Sith. Luke's damage curve vs 5 blocks hits for 3 at 54%, and you've got to imagine that's really "1" on the first swing with Zillo. But you might get a second swing ... and with Son of Skywalker, possibly a 3rd and 4th. Throw in Pummel for a triple strike at the top of a new round. Or you can tie Vader up in a round 2 conflict, then run Jedi Luke away, swinging as you go, and try to hide him so that Vader's early-round work doesn't translate into VPs.

3) Chewbacca is an interesting option. Even focused, his basic attack is going to slam into 5 blocks for 2-4 damage (2-74%, 3-46%, 4-18%, 5-3%). But speaking of slam, you've got an average two more unmitigated damage if you get in close ... which Vader's probably happy to help you with. But the real jewel here is the surge for stun: a stunned Vader can't move or attack End of Round (look out for that terrible Force Choke, though!). You'll want some surge support from Hera or Blitz , and Tools for the Job and Positioning Advantage can help you make sure enough damage goes through to apply conditions. But stun + slam-back-a-square can keep Vader from closing even before his activation if he doesn't have command card help, and with Debts Repaid and rebel activation economy, he'll probably be encouraged to help you close the distance for Chewie in the first place.

4) Speaking of Wookies, Drokatta is happy to help. A relatively inexpensive unit for a pretty big hit, Drokatta hits almost precisely as hard as Chewie. Some other good news here? Shrapnel is unmitigated damage, either as blast 2 from an adjacent target (where Collateral Damage can help you as well), or 1-per-each to everyone near her target ( including the target). She almost makes it worth playing Wild Fury , an old 2-point card which lets a Wookie make a second (focused) attack before becoming stunned and bleeding -- makes Onar wish he had fur. Plus Demolish can give you a free ping on Vader and slow his inexorable advance with some rubbly terrain, especially if you can land it next to a squeeze point in Jabba's Palace or Mos Eisley Back Alleys. Shoot, even the Swamplands are happy to help you build an even worse swamp through the middle of the board. Drok is another unit that can reliably take a hit from Vader before dropping, so keeping her far enough forward to use Demolish doesn't necessarily spell her doom. One final bag-of-tricks thought? Maximum Firepower is a great card to open round 2 or 3 with. The big con with Drok is a lack of help from other command cards.

5) Of course, if you want to drop Vader with a bag of tricks, Ahsoka may be your girl. Even before shenanigans, she hits like a (focused) wookie, and that's un focused! With focus, Ahsoka can deal 4 damage 74% or even 5 damage (42%) pretty reliably against 5 blocks. With Twin Sabers , she can force Vader to re-roll the good dice. Or if she whiffs, she can try again. As has been well-observed, she has great shenanigan-y card synergy with Wild Attack and Tough Luck, and with Force Leap , she'll be able to reliably use Element of Surprise, and she can often Pummel at the start of a round (possibly gaining a damage power token for the second attack from the first), and using her Vigor points to get into position or duck around a LoS corner. If you can get her a block token ( Vigor , Prepared for Battle , Ko-Tun), she becomes a bit tanky-er with her 12 health, and threatens a Right Back At Ya! for 3 unmitigated damage (whether you have it or not). Want to build around her even further? Force Push (hey! It comes in her pack!) pairs well with Vigor: Force Leap to Vader, swing, re-roll his good dice, push him 2 away from you (and, incidentally, the rest of your forces), then step back 2 yourself with Vigor. A bit of Gideon help or Force Rush or Fleet Footed , and you're back out of his range. Or stay in his range, and pack Slippery Target, gambling that you'll see Vader (or at least Jedi Luke, or maybe an AT-DP that you can cheese into coming around a corner adjacent to you, say, over blocking terrain on Mos Eisley?). Ahsoka may be the least reliable, but most fun, Vader counter, and half of her value may be that like Luke, she can take one round's hit and then run like heck. And you're going to Negate , Comm Disrupt, or Intelligence Leak away his Force Rush , right?

6) Finally, you could set up the canonically-cinematic Obi-Wan Kenobi confrontation. Obi-Wan was probably built for this back before Vader was Driven by Hate, but he still holds up a bit. He's a weaker rebel force-user these days due to his lack of command card synergy from things like Brawler Cards (Luke) or Spy work from Ahsoka, but he hits like a truck, especially focused. Focused Obi-Wan is hitting past 5 blocks in the 5 damage (61%) or 6 damage (31%) range. Like Luke, Obi evades one of Vader's powerful surges, and he rolls a black die to defend his 12 health, so he might stay up. If he does fall, you get to focus a buddy to finish off his old apprentice. And meanwhile, Alter Mind stopped those ERiots from getting their round one Objective-Grabbing utility, forcing Vader to come back them up against you, right? Obi-Wan doesn't get much command card help -- Death Blow and Force Surge are about his only damage additions. But he can run other useful tricks ( Knowledge and Defense , anyone?), and with Urgency , Force Rush , and Gideon, he can amble his way into battle, even in his geriatric Jedi years. At 7 points for 2-3 Vader attacks, Obi-Wan's a steal, if you can get him to play well with others in your list.

Finally, you've got Plan C. As in stun. I mean ... Chewbacca?

Plan C :

1) Plan C1 is Chewbacca again. He's discussed above, and he's a reliable stun. He'll slowly lose a damage trade with Vader, even with stuns, but if your 11 point figure can tie up a 13 point figure (or make him bring in Palp to win the damage trade), you may be able to make up points elsewhere with the rest of your list.

2) Lando Calrissian is sick of deals that change whenever the evil boss feels like it. The trouble for him is beating 5 blocks while still getting a stunning shot through. The math gets awfully tight: against 5 blocks, Lando has a measly 9% chance of sticking three damage on the calculator, so assume that you've got to use your surge for stun instead, and that's basically your stun odds, using a red, green, yellow attack vs 5 blocks (so, this assumes you've already Gambit 'd your way to a red die to put the damage through). Hera-help is recommended (and easy to build into a smuggler list), as are command cards like Blitz, Tools for the Job , and Positioning Advantage . It looks good on paper; it feels great in game, but Lando-Stunrissian isn't your most reliable play against Vader. The good news? If you draw Cheat to Win or On the Lam , he can run away, leaving Vader stumbling forward and swinging through air!

3) ESabs. Yeah, these don't work. I learned this lesson at the Minnesota Regionals against @ThatJakeGuy . I think I put 4 or 5 focused shots into Vader, and I never got a damage through. ESabs should make their points back up by running crates in for points or cheerfully blasting the Emperor. Of course, if you're running them with Maximum Firepower along with Drokatta, you might have a board-layout that makes sense for stunning the Sith Lord!

If the list has Vader & Palp, kill Palp, ignore Vader entirely, no matter your list, his vader is dead weight after you remove Palp.

If the list is Vader & eRiots & 2 eJets - things get more complicated because of mission objectives, especially in a tournament setting.

A well built command deck will also make Vader much more nasty to confront.

Palp + Vader isn't anything to be a fraid of if you can split them up or get rid of Palp (relatively easy to do compared to Vader)

4 hours ago, GottaBadFeelingAboutThis said:

3) ESabs. Yeah, these don't work. I learned this lesson at the Minnesota Regionals against @ThatJakeGuy . I think I put 4 or 5 focused shots into Vader, and I never got a damage through. ESabs should make their points back up by running crates in for points or cheerfully blasting the Emperor. Of course, if you're running them with Maximum Firepower along with Drokatta, you might have a board-layout that makes sense for stunning the Sith Lord!

In your defense, most people aren't running Vader with Onar Koma and getting even more defensive bonuses. Might be worth a shot, especially if you have Hera to add an extra surge.

What about Jyn??

7 minutes ago, brettpkelly said:

What about Jyn??

A focused Jyn with Hera or Blitz can pump some big damage, exhaust Zillow with Pierce, and lay down stun. I'm with @brettpkelly .

Regarding Ahsoka vs Vader: Do not forget that you can also use her mobility to deal damage to Vader and avoid his attempt at getting adjacent to her in his attempt to retaliate. Move Ahsoka adjacent to Vader, but make sure to save two points of movement to move away from him after you attack (this is where Ahsoka's Vigor often comes in very handy and gives her a slight edge with this tactic over other figures). If Vader wants to retaliate other than with Force Choke, he needs to move adjacent to her, but then you play Slippery Target. What's great: You can have Slippery Target twice in your command deck. Hide in Plain Sight is very useful, too.

I love this thread. I have my regional coming up and haven't gotten the chance to playtest against vader much. Bringing a pretty standard merc list (IG, eQuays, onar, vinto, care package, and either greedo or rJawa+devious+black market), so I assume the only options available to mercs are push damage through using hunter cards or kite vader? I assume IG matches up will with vader and can kite him with superior speed, same with the rodians.

Someone else mentioned ignoring vader and going after the rest of the list. I assume that is a viable strategy as well?

14 minutes ago, Averagejo3gam3r said:

I love this thread. I have my regional coming up and haven't gotten the chance to playtest against vader much. Bringing a pretty standard merc list (IG, eQuays, onar, vinto, care package, and either greedo or rJawa+devious+black market), so I assume the only options available to mercs are push damage through using hunter cards or kite vader? I assume IG matches up will with vader and can kite him with superior speed, same with the rodians.

Someone else mentioned ignoring vader and going after the rest of the list. I assume that is a viable strategy as well?

The new Vader hotness seems to be running him with Unshakeable and Parting Blow , looking for shenanigans with things like Dark Energy . So the play is to (double?) move Vader next to a bunch of figures, then if a figure tries to flee, you Parting Blow them, then activate Palp, use Unshakeable (off of Palp to un-stun Vader : the card reads: "Exhaust this card at the start of one of your figure's activations and choose 1 of your figures with a figure cost of 9 or greater. That figure discards 1 HARMFUL condition and suffers one strain."), then have Palp order Vader to attack. People are getting 3-4 attacks off of Vader in a given round. I'd say against that, your option is to spread out and count 10 movement spaces, assuming Vader will run Force Rush , etc.

The good news is that this build is fairly CC-intensive, so Vader has fewer Zillo shenanigans available. The general meta here? Don't let Vader Parting Blow , which may mean that you take a shot at him (or just stay next to him and shoot someone else). Or, y'know, run On the Lam and Run for Cover in your rebel smuggler build.

I think we can add Plan D from @Kalandros 's game in the Toronto finals, which you can view on this thread: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/271232-video-toronto-2018-regional-for-the-win-cafe/

Plan D is deck building so that Vader can only pull down about 4 points a round in figures. It doesn't matter if he kills something, if everything he kills is only worth 4. ERangers seem ideal here, as they can pick their targets from the rest of Vader's gang. If Vader kills three 4-point figures, he hasn't made his points back in a 3-round game.

That said, I'm not sure how that Final would have gone if the map/mission setup had been holding-stashes on Mos Eisley instead of crate pickup on Nal Hutta ...

Ignoring Vader might work in a 65 minute game, but in a 105 minute final I doubt that.

13 minutes ago, DerBaer said:

Ignoring Vader might work in a 65 minute game, but in a 105 minute final I doubt that.

Yep, thats exactly the problem I ran into~