The base stuff looks balanced.

Alternative for Fading of the Firstborn: When a Story point is spent to upgrade the difficulty of a check an Elf makes, add a setback die in addition to the upgrade.

At least in that case it won't come up often, but when it does, it could hurt (but not guaranteed).

Elves? And they're being properly distinguished? Color me intrigued.

I've been thinking about Tolkien's Elves for Genesys recently (planning a game to introduce a friend to roleplaying and we both love Middle Earth). In my own little notes, my solution to elves being "perfect" is that, in all reality, they're just flawed in other ways. The best example is Feanor (source of the very Doom of Mandos you mention in your stats, as it happens): he was, by far, the greatest craftsman of all the Noldor, forging the beautiful Silmarils concerning which most of the strife of the first age is wrought. However, he was terribly proud, refusing to help any of the Valar or other Elves when the trees of light died, and even leading the Noldor to their doom in search of his precious Silmarils. In other words, Feanor was rocking a 1 Willpower.

Similar reasonings could be made to lower other Elven races' stats. It is worth noting, as someone else did, that not all Elves were such mighty heroes. Most of them will probably be prone to the most prominent Elven flaws, which I would really just stick to Willpower, blaming it on pride, flightiness (many Elves just don't seem to care about what's happening in the world), or what have you. Of course, this is based mostly on my old fashioned and stubborn ways of saying "Ya need to match each 3 with a 1" from all the races in Star Wars, so I could definitely understand the reasoning behind making Elves all 2s and a 3.

The idea of them fading and dealing with the fall of the elves is a really cool one (I really like how it works with the Noldori), and I think you're going somewhere with your abilities and debuffs for the Elves. I'd go a step further in separating the Elves by giving them separate Characteristic ranks--Noldori get 3 Intellect, Sindari get 3 Presence, and Silvan Elves get the 3 Agility.

Anywho, that's just my two cents. Now don't mind me as I just borrow some or all of your ideas for my own plans...

On 09/03/2018 at 2:25 PM, Johan Marek Phoenix Knight said:

Does anyone have ideas on how to deal with this issue?

Yes, I have I'll do something based on the LotR RPG (CODA system) I have, cause it's the better stuff I have here right now.

NOLDOR
Brawn 2 Agility 2 Intellect 2 Cunning 2 Willpower 1 Presence 3
Wound Threshold: 9 + Brawn
Strain Threshold: 11 + Willpower
Starting Experience: 85 XP
Special Abilities: Eldars begin with one rank in Perception. You still cannot train their Perception above rank 2 during character creation. When making skill checks, eldars may remove [1 setback] imposed due to arid or hot or cold environmental conditions. They still may not train Knowledge or Metalurgy above rank 2 during the character creation. Add [1 boost] to all Coordination, Survival, and Vigilance checks.
Noldor Knowledge: You may spend 1 Story Point to reduce the difficult of the next Knowledge or Metalurgy (Mechanics) by 1 (to a minimum of 1).
Inner Light: If the Noldor lived among the valar on the other side of the sea, he may add [3 boosts] to any Discipline checks against all Morgoths's Servants. Noldor with this ability begin the game with 75 XP instead of 85 XP.

SINDAR
Brawn 2 Agility 3 Intellect 2 Cunning 2 Willpower 1 Presence 2
Wound Threshold: 10 + Brawn
Strain Threshold: 10 + Willpower
Starting Experience: 85 XP
Special Abilities: Eldars begin with one rank in Perception. You still cannot train their Perception above rank 2 during character creation. When making skill checks, eldars may remove [1 setback] imposed due to arid or hot or cold environmental conditions. Sindars begin with one rank in Charm. You still cannot train their Charm above rank 2 during character creation. Add [1 boost] to all Coordination, Survival, and Vigilance checks.

SILVAN
Brawn 2 Agility 2 Intellect 2 Cunning 2 Willpower 2 Presence 2 (or Brawn 2 Agility 3 Intellect 2 Cunning 2 Willpower 1 Presence 2, and reduce the Starting XP to 85 XP)
Wound Threshold: 10 + Brawn
Strain Threshold: 10 + Willpower
Starting Experience: 95 XP
Special Abilities: Eldars begin with one rank in Perception. You still cannot train their Perception above rank 2 during character creation. When making skill checks, eldars may remove [1 setback] imposed due to arid or hot or cold environmental conditions. Silvans begin with one rank in Survival. You still cannot train their Survival above rank 2 during character creation. Add [1 boost] to all Coordination, Survival, and Vigilance checks.

Few notes:

Willpower 1: They can be arrogant, pround and stubborn. This make they all a bit less strong to resist to certain things that may happen. Also, for who want to play with a wise elf, there is no problem to spend 50 XP to start with Willpower 3. And with Dedication, 4 in Willpower is a good stat. It's also possible to run a campaign with an additional 50XP for heroic characters. This rule turns possible to an elf begin the game with Willpower 4 without problems (increasing to 5 with Dedication later). Think about this!

Noldor: Genesys have more ways to reach some things than most systems. Here is an example. The boost in Coordination and the and the possible point in Metalurgy shows a bit of how skillful they may be in some activities. Also, spending 30 XP to upgrade Agility to 3 is not at all problematic. The book suggests that species have some kind of focus, in this case, I followed the line of knowledge and craft. Therefore, I believe that they serve their reputation very well.

Sindar: Like Noldors, in Genesys is possible to reach some results by more than one way. For Sindar we have the free Charm rank to reflect all the talent for art and it also help to compensate the Presence 2. The boost in Coordination + 3 in Agility means a strong sinergy, with is also ok to a "powerfull elf".

Many fans of the system are still stuck too formulas from other systems where everything is attribute bonus, but forget that Genesys is more abstract and flexible. There are many ways to show that a creature is good at something without directly increasing an attribute and that is wonderful.

It is also important to remember that nothing prevents the GM simply giving more initial experience to anyone playing elf. The problem is that this can be a bit annoying for the other players. I believe that what I have done gives a good basis for playing the elf without unbalancing the system.

I can never agree with Willpower 1. The elves in Lord of the Rings, for all their faults, have proven too strong-willed to be corrupted by either Morgoth or Sauron. They have their faults, certainly. They have even done terrible things. But never once have they truly succumbed to darkness.

I think instead, I will be editing my “Fading of the Firstborn” to give them a Threat in every Willpower-based check. That way they don’t so much succumb to evil (failures) as they do make terrible choices in their resistance of evil (threats).

Like I've said, i've followed the RPG i have and i got all the points there. The only point where is mentioned that strenght against the Shadow is in the Noldor. With I covered.

You can go with Brawn 1 instead. Would be easier to balance as well. Just 20 XP to upgrade to 2.

You can create a another racial trait worth 5 xp to give some bonus against the Shadow, and reduce the innitial XP by 5. No problem. I'm happy with my creation anyway.

You can give them something like immunity but it would be overpower. A lot of tests related to this is about Discipline and Willpower. And all the enemies in the LotR are creatures of the shadow. You are just looking for a whatever rank of Discipline and Willpower against 90% of the enemies in the setting. It worth 20 to 25 XP. I don't think it's good to the gameplay. Would reduce a lot the starting XP and they don't have any reasons to upgrade Discipline and even Willpower (only casters).

10 minutes ago, Johan Marek Phoenix Knight said:

I can never agree with Willpower 1. The elves in Lord of the Rings, for all their faults, have proven too strong-willed to be corrupted by either Morgoth or Sauron. They have their faults, certainly. They have even done terrible things. But never once have they truly succumbed to darkness.

I think instead, I will be editing my “Fading of the Firstborn” to give them a Threat in every Willpower-based check. That way they don’t so much succumb to evil (failures) as they do make terrible choices in their resistance of evil (threats).

That's some pretty fair reasoning, though I will mention that, while most weren't corrupted to become servants of Morgoth or Sauron (exception: the orcs, depending on which of Tolkien's theories you follow), many of them were corrupted in their own ways. Though then again, I guess since it was mostly pride and arrogance, it would argue for more rather than less Willpower (like the sons of Feanor sticking to their oath even in the face of all folly).

Still, this only matters if you want to give elves a low stat, which you certainly don't have to. I feel like the whole "take a Threat to all checks" penalty is good enough on its own, and is probably more effective than just lowering it to 1 (though it also makes it more permanent).

Guys, keep in mind that the force of will to resist to a lot of threats is measured by the Discipline skill. Willpower alone means very few. Maybe you are confusing that strong side of the elfs... it's possible that a lot of elves in the LotR focus on this skill, believing this is important. Willpower is the base stat for a lot of skills... elves aren't good in all of these skills. But they usually have a lot of Discipline. This is the point. Focus on this skill instead of the stat. Makes more sense while it's cheaper and easily to deal.

I thought about an alternative yesterday. Something like the Berserk, which i guess is worth 5 or 10 xp. For the rest of the encounter the elf will receive 2 success and 1 advantage in any Willppwer based check but their enemies will have 1 success in all atracks against you. At the end of the combat you suffer X strain.

Or something like spend a Story Point to receive a bonus doing this kind of check. Better and less expensive. Thinking in something worth 5 or 10 is much better.

But it's important to remember: Discipline is a important skill. Create anything that turns it useless to any elf is a broken design.

Well, I’ve gotten too invested now. I’m going to make a Middle Earth setting along the same lines as my OmniSphere settings, and I will post it up here when I am done.

Related question:

What stat would Beornings start with 1 in, if any? I’m thinking of using the Mongrel from the core book as a baseline and editing it from there. Even when not in bear form Beornings are pretty huge, so I’d think they’d start with Brawn 3.

5 hours ago, Johan Marek Phoenix Knight said:

What stat would Beornings start with 1 in, if any? I’m thinking of using the Mongrel from the core book as a baseline and editing it from there. Even when not in bear form Beornings are pretty huge, so I’d think they’d start with Brawn 3.

Definitely Pressence, I would say. While they might be physically imposing, the Beornings seem to follow after Beorn himself and are not "quick to adapt to social situations" or have much in the way of Charisma or Moxie.

16 minutes ago, Forgottenlore said:

Definitely Pressence, I would say. While they might be physically imposing, the Beornings seem to follow after Beorn himself and are not "quick to adapt to social situations" or have much in the way of Charisma or Moxie.

I agree. Not the friendliest bunch. Not very pretty either.

11 hours ago, Johan Marek Phoenix Knight said:

Related question:

What stat would Beornings start with 1 in, if any? I’m thinking of using the Mongrel from the core book as a baseline and editing it from there. Even when not in bear form Beornings are pretty huge, so I’d think they’d start with Brawn 3.

Presence.

On 3/9/2018 at 8:35 PM, Johan Marek Phoenix Knight said:

Maybe with other worlds, but in Tolkien’s world, the elves are generally as strong or stronger than humans. Glorfindel fought a freaking Balrog. Elves have literally gone toe-to-toe with being like Morgoth and Sauron. Brawn 1 might work with Warcraft or Warhammer elves, but definitely not with Tolkien’s elves.

But those are heroes that have almost certainly a lot of xp under their belts. Elves can easily be as brawny as humans, it just costs a bit more xp to get there.

7 hours ago, Slaunyeh said:

But those are heroes that have almost certainly a lot of xp under their belts. Elves can easily be as brawny as humans, it just costs a bit more xp to get there.

I really don’t understand where this idea for Brawn 1 elves comes from. Hobbits have Brawn 1, but there is absolutely nothing in any Lord of the Rings canon to suggest that elves are weaker than men. There has never been even a single example of a “weak” elf. Even the scholarly sorts are generally also great warriors (Elrond and Celebrimbor, for example).

44 minutes ago, Johan Marek Phoenix Knight said:

I really don’t understand where this idea for Brawn 1 elves comes from. Hobbits have Brawn 1, but there is absolutely nothing in any Lord of the Rings canon to suggest that elves are weaker than men. There has never been even a single example of a “weak” elf. Even the scholarly sorts are generally also great warriors (Elrond and Celebrimbor, for example).

I'm not saying they should have Brawn 1, like i said before, i think willpower would fit better.

But here i have 2 things:

1) Brawn isn't only strenght. It also represent the physical conditioning, body structure, endurance, health, etc. It's why this influence the Soak and Wouns T. People usually consider elves lighter and more fragile than humans, not necessarily weaker in strenght.

2) I'm not trying to be rude or offensive, ok? But seems you, sometimes, are confusing the attributes with the skills. A character could be an awesome fighter with Brawn 2, 3, 4.... If they have any melee combat skill with 3, 4 or 5 ranks, and some good talents.

29 minutes ago, Bellyon said:

I'm not saying they should have Brawn 1, like i said before, i think willpower would fit better.

But here i have 2 things:

1) Brawn isn't only strenght. It also represent the physical conditioning, body structure, endurance, health, etc. It's why this influence the Soak and Wouns T. People usually consider elves lighter and more fragile than humans, not necessarily weaker in strenght.

2) I'm not trying to be rude or offensive, ok? But seems you, sometimes, are confusing the attributes with the skills. A character could be an awesome fighter with Brawn 2, 3, 4.... If they have any melee combat skill with 3, 4 or 5 ranks, and some good talents.

First off, my last post was a response to someone else, not you.

Secondly, perhaps I am not explaining myself very well. While in many fictional settings elves are portrayed as fragile, in Tolkien’s world elves are never fragile. It isn’t just about them being skilled fighters. While they are incredibly light, that is more a part of their innate magic than anything else. Elves in Middle Earth are always portrayed as being at the peak of physical perfection, both in beauty and physical capabilities. They are eternal, and not just in the literal sense of not aging. Everything about the elves suggests their timelessness; from their wisdom to their ability to withstand everything sent against them. The death of an elf is a rare event for many reasons.

Anyways, I don’t believe that there is any characteristic that makes sense for elves to start with 1 in, so I won’t give them one. There is no rule that says a species needs to have 1 in at least one characteristic.

44 minutes ago, Johan Marek Phoenix Knight said:

First off, my last post was a response to someone else, not you.

Secondly, perhaps I am not explaining myself very well. While in many fictional settings elves are portrayed as fragile, in Tolkien’s world elves are never fragile. It isn’t just about them being skilled fighters. While they are incredibly light, that is more a part of their innate magic than anything else. Elves in Middle Earth are always portrayed as being at the peak of physical perfection, both in beauty and physical capabilities. They are eternal, and not just in the literal sense of not aging. Everything about the elves suggests their timelessness; from their wisdom to their ability to withstand everything sent against them. The death of an elf is a rare event for many reasons.

Anyways, I don’t believe that there is any characteristic that makes sense for elves to start with 1 in, so I won’t give them one. There is no rule that says a species needs to have 1 in at least one characteristic.

I know you answered another person... But this is an open discussion, so I thought I could help...

The stat 1 isn't a "rule" but a recommendation if the specie isn't the 222222. I can't check the page right now but creating a new specie, it could be 122223... It's a common design to balance and avoid "perfect" species.

I do agree with @Johan Marek Phoenix Knight about them not having a negative score though. Of all races and species in all fandoms that should be playable, elves are one of the few I can think of that basically are above average as an entire race and species. It would be difficult to pinpoint where, as a whole species they are below human average. One idea is to make them average human characteristic wise and then just give them skill altering abilities with less starting exp. But still I feel that there are characteristics that just feel higher for elves in general such as agility. The alternative to not having a 1 in any characteristic is to have less starting exp. That's a balance issue that slowly goes away the more exp is earned similar to Jedi in the Star Wars line. Less starting exp will make picking an elf not an obvious pick for min-maxers and allow elf characters to eventually reach the epic levels that they would be in the movies. The other races of Lord of the Rings have strengths that differ from elves so that the other races can still shine where elves do not. I also feel that by not boosting any combat characteristic aids in not making them feel unbalanced so that they are still as powerful during combat as every other race (with maybe the exception of hobbit.)

By the way, 222222 starts with 100 XP. 122223 starts with 90 XP. 222223 would start with 70 XP. 222233 would start with 40 XP. Heroic campaigns begins with an additional of +50 XP. I just don't think start the game with 70 or less XP is a good option... But it's possible for sure.

31 minutes ago, Bellyon said:

By the way, 222222 starts with 100 XP. 122223 starts with 90 XP. 222223 would start with 70 XP. 222233 would start with 40 XP. Heroic campaigns begins with an additional of +50 XP. I just don't think start the game with 70 or less XP is a good option... But it's possible for sure.

1. 222222 actually starts with 110, 122223 starts with 100, etc.

2. I see no problem with a species starting at 70. You can still upgrade one stat to 4 and another to 3. All my players spend all their starting xp on characteristics anyway. It makes for a good way to balance all of the elves’ special abilities. Anything lower than that would be too low, but 70 is the sweet-spot for species that have a lot of advantages over the other species.

33 minutes ago, Drig said:

I do agree with @Johan Marek Phoenix Knight about them not having a negative score though. Of all races and species in all fandoms that should be playable, elves are one of the few I can think of that basically are above average as an entire race and species. It would be difficult to pinpoint where, as a whole species they are below human average. One idea is to make them average human characteristic wise and then just give them skill altering abilities with less starting exp. But still I feel that there are characteristics that just feel higher for elves in general such as agility. The alternative to not having a 1 in any characteristic is to have less starting exp. That's a balance issue that slowly goes away the more exp is earned similar to Jedi in the Star Wars line. Less starting exp will make picking an elf not an obvious pick for min-maxers and allow elf characters to eventually reach the epic levels that they would be in the movies. The other races of Lord of the Rings have strengths that differ from elves so that the other races can still shine where elves do not. I also feel that by not boosting any combat characteristic aids in not making them feel unbalanced so that they are still as powerful during combat as every other race (with maybe the exception of hobbit.)

I think people here are diverging cause we have two ways to see an adaptation to RPG:

1) Be as loyal as possible to the original romance

2) Try to convert to a game design, balancing the player options

I don't think anyone is better, is just about preference.

I think that if it would appear as a player option, it should be balanced with all the other alternatives. I really don't believe that this will offend or despise the original work. I guess we all here are fans of LotR, you know?

Just now, Bellyon said:

I think people here are diverging cause we have two ways to see an adaptation to RPG:

1) Be as loyal as possible to the original romance

2) Try to convert to a game design, balancing the player options

I don't think anyone is better, is just about preference.

I think that if it would appear as a player option, it should be balanced with all the other alternatives. I really don't believe that will offend or despise the original work. I guess we all here are fans of LotR, you know?

It is possible to do both. Elves starting at 70 xp would balance them while still enabling them to feel like LotR elves.

Just now, Johan Marek Phoenix Knight said:

It is possible to do both. Elves starting at 70 xp would balance them while still enabling them to feel like LotR elves.

Like I've said, its possible, without problems. Personally I think is... idk... I don't like. And I did my version here and you already know very well how I think about this.

It's common to see in any RPG book all the species with an equilibrium between them. Strong species usually appears as NPC options, you know?