Our group have been playing melee games for a while now and we've noticed that a lot of our games are won on the back of the Rise of the Kraken plot card.

This plot is undoubtedly a great means of gaining power rapidly, but there is growing table talk about the plot being "broken" or "overpowered". I'm not convinced (well, I am the Greyjoy player ) and I've suggested one or two ways to scupper the plot. For example, the core Varys allows swapping of plot decks so that somebody could play it early in the game, before it becomes truly useful. But that got a luke warm reception, largely thanks to nobody wanting to take on the responsibility and a preference for the new Varys.

So I thought I'd see what the feeling about this card is amongst the gaming community. Is it broken? Should it be banned!? Any other suggestions for how to lessen its effect? I don't want the feeling that this is an 'I Win' card to take hold.

Card broken... not, powerful card... but if we think about this card has broken we should bann tons of other ones (most of all roaring ones :-))

I don't consider it "broken", but do consider it a fantastic finisher for Greyjoy. One of the best ways to counter it is to not let the GJ player go first.. However, this means one has to beat an 8 for initiative, which is not easy in the current LCG environment. Would have to run the bays and whatever other high initiative plots one can find.

And since we are talking about melee, another thing that may be able to help is to make sure to choose MP titles that support each other so when the GJ player goes to attack someone who may be defenseless to that particular attack, the other player(s) can support that player and take the challenge so that it isn't unopposed.

That's all I have for now. Personally, love the plot, and glad it's part of the LCG.

Great topic - and it brings back a lot of memories.

when i played melee nearly exclusively - for the first year of the game or so - you could run two copies of Plots in your deck. and greyjoy was nearly broken in th format - winning somehting like 90% of the games we plaalyed. it all came down to thir Plto - Longships of the Iron Fleet which had very similar stats to RoTK. With two copies, the GJ player oculd set himself up to go alst one Turn and first the next - setting up an almost auto win every time.

Times have changed, but RoTK is almost as nasty and is a clear finisher. Ist not broken - but it is very, very powerful and all players must keep their eye on the krkaen and calculate his striking distance, starting around Plot Four. Once he is at the six to eight power theshold - he's clearly in striking distance (given assertion of Might and Make an Example) and titles need to be chosen appropriately. His characters with stealh need to be the first taregts of control, even more so than those with renown. Careful use of teh Support function of the titles must carefully be considered.

Its tricky and it will tkae a lot of coordiantion form the other players - and at the same time, you need to watch out for teh baratehon player while you are settling the Greyjoy player's situation.

since this is another plot people feel is overly strong, maybe we need to bring back "anti-plots" plots i.e. (not asking for them per se but using as examples) outfox and forgotten plans.

It's interesting you mention watching out for Baratheon as that is exactly what happened! We couldn't pick supporting titles to stop Greyjoy as Baratheon was on 13 power and Greyjoy only 7. I was on 9 as Martell and I would win if the other two tripped up somehow.

So it was almost a case of who do we let win, which doesn't feel like a fun way to play. If we try to keep everyones power under control at some point everyone is going to have 6 or 7 power and then Greyjoy play their plot and win.

Challenge control.

Lannister should be kneeling their power guys, Stark should be killing them, Martell should be stripping icons or kneeling them, Baratheon should be stealing their characters, Targaryen burning them. No one person has to commit fully if everyone commits some.

@Fai - This happens sometimes. Everyone is so jealous of their own power and so focused on winning that sometimes you get to a situation where no one can stop someone from winning without losing themselves.

nobody seemed to mention having a Overzealous Scout in there deck and hopefully on the field! That's 4 initiative so with a fury card your set or empty throne! you get the picture...

Another way to counter any non-when revealed plot is to force your opponent to reveal a new one. Bara is one House that has quite a bit of this; especially with the upcoming CP's.

Wait it's meele?

It's simple (and the reason I stopped playing meele).

Everyone just does not allow the Greyjoy player to have any cards on the board or in hand, gimp him. Besides most folks win faster if you have a gimped player to farm unopposed challenges.

Granted use of this strategy may cause loss of friendship, it is rather brutal.

bloodycelt said:

While I generally agree, Greyjoy does have saves which may make it more difficult to clear his or her characters. Additionally, don't over do it; otherwise, your just giving that final rush opportunity to someone else. This happened once when I played a Stark deck. One player had so much irrational hate over the fact that I Blockaded first turn and had Bear Island out that he focused all his efforts on me. He was so determined to "hurt" me that he refused to discard an attachment on a Martell player's Red Viper with his Wintertime Marauders. Instead he discarded one of my Great Keeps. Not only did that prevent me from using Bear Island on the Red Viper, which already had quite a few power on it, the next turn the Martell player revealed The Power of Blood. Needless to say, the Martell player won.

Also, someone else mentioned earlier that sometimes your in a situation where if you stop one person from winning you'll be letting someone else win. Essentially a lose-lose situation for you. My response to that is that's how melee works. If you're not within striking distance of winning the game before your other opponents, you're not going to win. If I'm ever at the point where I realize I can't win, I decide who I want win. Usually it's the person that been the most "honorable." Sometimes I'll decide who I want to lose if I'd been betrayed by someone. Once I make my decision, I adjust my game plan accordingly to help or inhibit the other players.

Melee is a game, a metagame, and a subgame all at the same time. There is the primary goal of the game to gain 15 power, but a metagame of negotiation and evaluation that steps above and beyond the 15 power, and at the same time a game within a game, where keeping your opponents far enough from winning that you always have a path to victory.

A lot of people who come to CCG's have a personality type or interest in relatively straight forward games where the cards and their use determine the outcome of games with as much exclusion of social interaction as possible. Multiplayer, especially AGoT's melee, is much more than that, and it takes a different mentality (though not necessarily a different player) to do well, and more importantly enjoy this style of play.