So context.

Going to a 600pts doubles tournament in a couple of months, first tournament and going for the fun.

Heres the list were running (decided by combat, so it has a amazing victory already):

Big Bad (596/600)
================
MC75 Ordnance Cruiser (100 + 53)
+ General Rieekan (30)
+ Strategic Adviser (4)
+ Caitken and Shollan (6)
+ Electronic Countermeasures (7)
+ Ordnance Pods (3)
+ External Racks (3)
MC80 Battle Cruiser (103 + 37)
+ Intel Officer (7)
+ Gunnery Team (7)
+ Spinal Armament (9)
+ XI7 Turbolasers (6)
+ Mon Karren (8)
MC75 Ordnance Cruiser (100 + 23)
+ General Draven (3)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Electronic Countermeasures (7)
+ Ordnance Pods (3)
+ External Racks (3)
+ Aspiration (3)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 4)
+ Repair Crews (4)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 2)
+ Comms Net (2)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 2)
+ Comms Net (2)
Jan Ors (19)
Shara Bey (17)
3 x YT-1300 (3 x 13)
2 x A-wing Squadron (2 x 11)
3 x Z-95 Headhunter Squadron (3 x 7)
Most Wanted
Fighter Ambush
Intel Sweep

Played against this:

Fleet 630 /B (593/600)
=====================
Cymoon 1 Refit (112 + 67)
+ Admiral Screed (26)
+ Intel Officer (7)
+ Gunnery Team (7)
+ Shields to Maximum! (6)
+ Hardened Bulkheads (5)
+ XI7 Turbolasers (6)
+ Heavy Turbolaser Turrets (6)
+ Sovereign (4)
Victory II-class Star Destroyer (85 + 19)
+ Fire-Control Team (2)
+ Disposable Capacitors (3)
+ Heavy Ion Emplacements (9)
+ XX-9 Turbolasers (5)
Victory II-class Star Destroyer (85 + 19)
+ Fire-Control Team (2)
+ Disposable Capacitors (3)
+ Heavy Ion Emplacements (9)
+ XX-9 Turbolasers (5)
Gozanti-class Assault Carriers (28 + 4)
+ Repair Crews (4)
Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 + 4)
+ Repair Crews (4)
Dengar (20)
Ciena Ree (17)
Howlrunner (16)
Valen Rudor (13)
Black Squadron (9)
9 x Tie Fighter Squadron (9 x 8)

(I was first player and We played superior positions, i lost the 2As and shara plus a YT (52pts) to his vic, 1Goz and all fighters bar dengar and a interceptor)

So in saying that what thoughts do you have on the rebel list? Im mostly happy with how it plays but ive got time to try different options

I had one Tie/LN as well.

8 hours ago, E-Man720 said:

I had one Tie/LN as well.

I just copied ur list from messenger lol

20 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

I just copied ur list from messenger lol

I had one left I mean.

52 minutes ago, E-Man720 said:

I had one left I mean.

Gosh be as vague as possible will ya!

With yt1300s the 3 z's are begging to be upgraded to Biggs. Shift one A to Tycho and add Toryn and bright hope to a flotilla to absorb the leftover points. This makes your squads 900% scarier as toryn flak is insane.

Also, if you face a list with 3 cymoons and no squads you can just concede. Your fleet has no answet for that. The fleet that you tested it against (slow no end victorys and lots of generic squads to farm) is designed to loose against the rebel fleet you built.

To remedy that repurpose the ord mc75s to an antiship role instead of antisquad.

5 hours ago, BrobaFett said:

With yt1300s the 3 z's are begging to be upgraded to Biggs. Shift one A to Tycho and add Toryn and bright hope to a flotilla to absorb the leftover points. This makes your squads 900% scarier as toryn flak is insane.

Also, if you face a list with 3 cymoons and no squads you can just concede. Your fleet has no answet for that. The fleet that you tested it against (slow no end victorys and lots of generic squads to farm) is designed to loose against the rebel fleet you built.

To remedy that repurpose the ord mc75s to an antiship role instead of antisquad.

3 Cymoons and no squads would get slaughtered. With nothing to intercept them, they rebel fighters would just start bombing them to bits.

You have 6ish expected squad damage per turn, mostly generics, against double black flack. In the 3 turns it would take those to kill an isd it would kill most the screen back in return. In return, 6 reds with intel and xi7 (a typically cymoon kit out) will kill one of those large ships every turn if they can overlap fire.

And they use gunnery teams to either flak or push that against 2 of the 3 ships each turn to speed up a tabling. Transports in red range of a front arc are almost a guaranteed 1 shot.

32 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

You have 6ish expected squad damage per turn, mostly generics, against double black flack. In the 3 turns it would take those to kill an isd it would kill most the screen back in return. In return, 6 reds with intel and xi7 (a typically cymoon kit out) will kill one of those large ships every turn if they can overlap fire.

And they use gunnery teams to either flak or push that against 2 of the 3 ships each turn to speed up a tabling. Transports in red range of a front arc are almost a guaranteed 1 shot.

Cymoons use mostly red dice. Not likely to get high damage out of them.

38 minutes ago, E-Man720 said:

Cymoons use mostly red dice. Not likely to get high damage out of them.

Hey bud, feel like I'm derailing thread a bit but it's not my intention. Nor arguing, if you disagree thats all good. If you want to test it on vassal, i would be happy to do that too! We all get better when we play it out

That said, if you haven't ran into this ISD cymoon with vader, intel officer, spinal, xi7 and intensify firepower you are fortunate, it is all over my area; and it is incredibly hard to deal with.

6 red dice without vader have an expected damage of 5. vader raises that to near 7, and pretty much makes anything less than 6 unheard of. It also has a Max damage of 12, so its likely once or twice a game per ship you will see a 9 or 10 damage shot.

So let's say you are fighting a 600pt vader fleet with 3 cymoons and all three have a front arc shot on aspiration, your toughest target. Vader is rerolling accs cause you have ecm, and he gets the expected 7 damage on each of the three shots. You get one brace due to intel, and can redirect a total of 2 due to xi7 before the rdr is gone. That means that target WILL take 16 damage to one zone. Thats enough to kill aspiration chipping through its 6 shield zone in 1 turn with a damage to spare. It's more than enough to kill anything else.

In order to counteract this, of course, you need to prevent them from overlapping fire. Charging straight in and relying on the squads to burn the isds on the other hand is a sure fire way to get tabled.

26 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

Hey bud, feel like I'm derailing thread a bit but it's not my intention. Nor arguing, if you disagree thats all good. If you want to test it on vassal, i would be happy to do that too! We all get better when we play it out

That said, if you haven't ran into this ISD cymoon with vader, intel officer, spinal, xi7 and intensify firepower you are fortunate, it is all over my area; and it is incredibly hard to deal with.

6 red dice without vader have an expected damage of 5. vader raises that to near 7, and pretty much makes anything less than 6 unheard of. It also has a Max damage of 12, so its likely once or twice a game per ship you will see a 9 or 10 damage shot.

So let's say you are fighting a 600pt vader fleet with 3 cymoons and all three have a front arc shot on aspiration, your toughest target. Vader is rerolling accs cause you have ecm, and he gets the expected 7 damage on each of the three shots. You get one brace due to intel, and can redirect a total of 2 due to xi7 before the brace is gone. That means that target WILL take 16 damage to one zone. Thats enough to kill aspiration chipping through its 6 shield zone in 1 turn with a damage to spare. It's more than enough to kill anything else.

In order to counteract this, of course, you need to prevent them from overlapping fire. Charging straight in and relying on the squads to burn the isds on the other hand is a sure fire way to get tabled.

See I don't normally think about using multi Isd lists because he quite often takes TRC-90 lists. Where the little damage shreds Isds. Hence why I was trying the 2 Vsds with the repair gozanti's behind them.

Also he has a tendancy to order A-Wings forward and always roll damage against ships. Hence my fighter screen. However I did try to flank hus fleet to avoid Mon Karen. However i think i should have just made a beeline for it and smashed it.

Also my rolls were poor, his were on point.

8 hours ago, BrobaFett said:

With yt1300s the 3 z's are begging to be upgraded to Biggs. Shift one A to Tycho and add Toryn and bright hope to a flotilla to absorb the leftover points. This makes your squads 900% scarier as toryn flak is insane.

Also, if you face a list with 3 cymoons and no squads you can just concede. Your fleet has no answet for that. The fleet that you tested it against (slow no end victorys and lots of generic squads to farm) is designed to loose against the rebel fleet you built.

To remedy that repurpose the ord mc75s to an antiship role instead of antisquad.

Biggs: will try

Tycho: thought about it, havent decided yet, Awings are more sacrificial interceptors and i dont feel good about making them expensive (even if it does give th e ability and scatter which makes me hum and aww)

Toryn: if i go that way yes

Bright hope: awesome title but probably not. If the flotillas are getting shot im flying the fleet wrong.

3 cymoon no squads: i will keep out for this one specific fleet builds. If i put a ship so that all 3 cymoons fire at it i deserve the loss, i dont see this fleet build as a definite lose scenario though but definitely a scary one

Vic list designed to lose: well i didnt make the imp list, but i shared my list info days beforehand sooooo @E-Man720 knew what he could be facing.

Remedy ord from antisquad to antiship: definitive command with vague details on how, awesome! thought about changing it into a "scary" squid (....shrimp....) and a trc90 instead. Will think more on that line so i have 2 threats (mon karren and mc30)

Thanks for responding!

1 hour ago, BrobaFett said:

Hey bud, feel like I'm derailing thread a bit but it's not my intention. Nor arguing, if you disagree thats all good. If you want to test it on vassal, i would be happy to do that too! We all get better when we play it out

That said, if you haven't ran into this ISD cymoon with vader, intel officer, spinal, xi7 and intensify firepower you are fortunate, it is all over my area; and it is incredibly hard to deal with.

6 red dice without vader have an expected damage of 5. vader raises that to near 7, and pretty much makes anything less than 6 unheard of. It also has a Max damage of 12, so its likely once or twice a game per ship you will see a 9 or 10 damage shot.

So let's say you are fighting a 600pt vader fleet with 3 cymoons and all three have a front arc shot on aspiration, your toughest target. Vader is rerolling accs cause you have ecm, and he gets the expected 7 damage on each of the three shots. You get one brace due to intel, and can redirect a total of 2 due to xi7 before the rdr is gone. That means that target WILL take 16 damage to one zone. Thats enough to kill aspiration chipping through its 6 shield zone in 1 turn with a damage to spare. It's more than enough to kill anything else.

In order to counteract this, of course, you need to prevent them from overlapping fire. Charging straight in and relying on the squads to burn the isds on the other hand is a sure fire way to get tabled.

Even with vader rerolls and that, your opponents have ascended beyond gods of the dice.

Also yoit not derailing, this is the type of info i was hoping for

"Dont charge at ISDs front" "dont let sqds get burned" "prevent overlapping fire"

^ no offense but soo completely obvious i almost feel insulted

No this fleet is meant to be agile (for large ships) and thats how i intend to fly it.

On that topic, what other fleet builds have you seen pop up recently due to wave 7?

Theres always been the yavaris/ace holes type build, ackbar gunline, BTvenger, the very rare nosepunch type :), any others?

(Also dont use vassal but who knows in the future?)

14 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

Vic list designed to lose: well i didnt make the imp list, but i shared my list info days beforehand sooooo @E-Man720 knew what he could be facing.

To be fair the 400pt dual vic list I made seemed to be working ok. So in theory the STM Cymoon should have made it very hard to damage. If it wasn't for Mon Karen and Sadistic Advisor.

11 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

Even with vader rerolls and that, your opponents have ascended beyond gods of the dice.

I played double vader cymoons two days ago and I didn't have a single attack under 6 damage. And i have the worst red dice luck ever. I am telling You bluntly you are dramatically underestimating vader + IF.

Roll 6 red dice, reroll any blanks, then turn any remaining blank to a hit with IF and see for yourself.

14 minutes ago, DrakonLord said:

"Dont charge at ISDs front" "dont let sqds get burned" "prevent overlapping fire"

^ no offense but soo completely obvious i almost feel insulted

No this fleet is meant to be agile (for large ships) and thats how i intend to fly it.

Rieekan would lead me to believe the fleet relied on a more direct approach. Agility is reserved for madine primarily. And remember, an mc75 and isd have the exact same nav chart. Any move they can do the isd can do to. Was not meaning to be insulting, but all of this is figuring red range only. Avoiding red range is incredibly difficult, it's a big threat zone.

Other fleets to look out for are raddus mc75 that will take your "dance around them" approach and laugh at it. They will drop in the worst possible spot and wreck you. DON'T underestimate this used by a good player.

Additionally, bail mc75s and pryce isd/quasar with max squads are dangerous wave 7 options too.

21 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

I played double vader cymoons two days ago and I didn't have a single attack under 6 damage. And i have the worst red dice luck ever. I am telling You bluntly you are dramatically underestimating vader + IF.

Roll 6 red dice, reroll any blanks, then turn any remaining blank to a hit with IF and see for yourself.

Rieekan would lead me to believe the fleet relied on a more direct approach. Agility is reserved for madine primarily. And remember, an mc75 and isd have the exact same nav chart. Any move they can do the isd can do to. Was not meaning to be insulting, but all of this is figuring red range only. Avoiding red range is incredibly difficult, it's a big threat zone.

Other fleets to look out for are raddus mc75 that will take your "dance around them" approach and laugh at it. They will drop in the worst possible spot and wreck you. DON'T underestimate this used by a good player.

Additionally, bail mc75s and pryce isd/quasar with max squads are dangerous wave 7 options too.

Huh i had forgotten about thise 2, bail and pryce, thanks for the reminder.

An isd and mc75 having the same manouver is true, and yes it is dangerous, but does that make my statement any less true? For a large ship theyre quite manouverable

Raddus fleets - yep, they can drop in and wreck any fleet. Ive got a couple of thoughts as to stopping them but havent had enough wave 7 games yet to know.

I can see how you saw with rieekan, i was tossing up with a few admirals (dodonna, leia, ackbar, sato even) and figured he would be the best.

"Dont underestimate (raddus fleet) used by a good player" insulted now like common now if you underestimate anything your not gonna have a bad time lol. As i said ive got a couple of ideas and hoping to try them, but thanks

Thanks for responding and for the advice! Will definitely keep it in mind!