can you take either the ghouls raised follower or the minstrels charmed animal after you defeat them?

darthmax said:

You could if you could take those as Followers normally, but only one who could is Ogre Chieftain if Ghoul has a raised Monster Follower. And if the OC attacks Ghoul, I'd use the Follower in battle so that the OC doesn't get a free Follower.

You would only be able to take a normal Follower after taking a character's last life. If you merely defeat them in battle/psychic combat you may only take a life, Object or Gold.

Dam said:

Interesting.

So the Ogre Chieftain can get the resurrected monster followers from the Ghoul if he kills the Ghoul?

It should be possible...

We already had that question (because anyone could take followers with Mesmerism). John Goodenough answered to the question:

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

So no other character can take those special followers and they cannot even be ditched by their owner. If forced to ditch, the card is discarded (on discard pile of respective card type).

I play with the previous rule..

it makes no sense that animal followers are discarded.

It is not the Black Void

Velhart said:

Yesterday's game featured some situations where a Character had to lose such Followers. Discarding the "so-called" Followers is a much better solution than keeping them on the board and try to understand how will it work.

I think it's fair that a Character cannot take the Black Unicorn or fight it again (it has already been fought and "killed"; Talisman Enemy cards are never killed twice in the same game). It's also nice that a Minstrel/Ghoul/Ogre Chieftain/Necromancer Follower, a Dominated Enemy or a Mastered (with Staff) Enemy can't be taken or fought. Just discard and never think about it again. This keeps things simple and reduces the need for small rules. This was a good answer from John Goodenough, IMO.

The_Warlock said:

The Black Unicorn is not killed, otherwise you could not take it as a follower.

Same for animals etc

It says that it is defeated ( in other words, it has lose the combat)

-

There is nothing difficult about it.. ( if you must ditch those followers, then they become normal again. ( they are not dead)

Next time if a character land on it, then they must fight it again.

--------

I think that people must decide for themself which rule they will use..

Velhart said:

Aehm, are you trying to teach me that you need not to kill a Black Unicorn to take it as a Follower? I think I already know.

I used the word "killed" since many cards in Talisman talk about "killing". In normal life the words have very different meanings, but in Talisman killing and defeating are sinonyms, at least for Enemies.

Velhart said:

Enemies needn't be dead to be discarded.

It's not a matter of realism, but of game balance, just that. Is it right that the Black Unicorn is defeated twice or more times in the same game? I feel the answer should be no, since this is not true for any other Enemy. It is defeated once as any other Enemy, it is taken as a Follower and discarded if lost. Same ruling applies to any other Enemy that is removed from the board and taken as a Follower. He did his duty for the current game and can succesfully retire.

Anyway, you may agree or not, this is not plain logic or rules-talking. These returning Enemies may have a big impact on the game in some situations; I might have won yesterdays game if my dominated Miser Dragon had guarded my stuff while I was wandering around as a toaded Warlock. In 5 Turns I was back and could have grabbed everything, smacking the Miser Dragon on his cheek, but a weak Fate-rich Leprechaun managed to land on the space in a couple of turns and take the goodies. Then he won, thanks to my Runesword.

Velhart said:

This is true, but what's the OFFICIAL ruling?

The_Warlock said:

I just want to explain that the Black Unicorn is still alive, that's why you can take it as a follower.

If you ditch it,( leave it alone) then it seeks a new challenger.

( you don't have to accept this old rule..)

The_Warlock said:

I have no problem with defeating the black unicorn again, since it was once a follower, and became a enemy again on the board.

The_Warlock said:

A enemy inside a dominated staff or something is different. You don't have to fight it.

The_Warlock said:

The new rule is what Goodenough said..

But i hope he changed his mind

But because it makes no sense, it's better if people decide which rule they want to use ( the old one or the new one)

Everyone is happy then...

Velhart said:

The reason why I like JG's ruling is that it makes no difference and gives the same answer to all questions. Discard and forget about it.

You think a Dominated Enemy is "inside" a Staff (in my example I was talking of Domination Spell) and follows the Staff in any case; I think the Staff has a power only when it's wielded by a Character and if there's no Character wielding the Staff the creature should break free; another person might think that the Staff allows you to dominate an Enemy exactly like the Domination Spell (=you don't lose control of the Enemy if you lose the Staff). Who's correct? You may feel you're correct because you asked John Goodenough to clarify the Staff issue and he gave you that answer, but if he now changed his mind and proposes a totally different ruling, that eliminates possible distinctions, I think he's only following the practice adopted with FAQ 1.0: avoid exceptions to the rule if not necessary.

I'm not saying you've to agree about the rule itself; personally I would make a rule for everything in Talisman, to have outcomes that suit my personal view of the game. FFG tendency is totally opposite and it's what they're expected to do. Talisman has a solid support from the game design & distribution company, it's not like in the past when everybody chose to make his own game at home. Now we can have it clarified and as you say we may choose to apply official ruling or not. I think that everything has improved from the past, even when we don't agree with official answers. Official answers always have a sense.

The_Warlock said:

I did not ask this question to John Goodenough, but it was discussed somewhere on this forum.

I think that Talismansilat has once said something about the wand of domination or domination spell etc

Maybe it is official or maybe not, people must decide for themself how they want to play the games, and which rules they will use.

Let's wait for the new faq..

Here's how I like to handle these sorts of situations.

If you have to ditch ( ) a mesmerized (Minstrel, etc), resurrected (Ghoul, etc) or defeated Follower ( Black Unicorn, Centaur etc ) on to a space on the board then they are back in play. This would be specifically for places like the Dungeon Cell or Dungeon Master, I think the Chasm and any other space such as the Vampire space you actually flat out loose the Followers.

I don't think that anyone can take these types of Followers, even upon death of character or the Sorceress' ability. I think those should now be a bunch of Enemies on the space that you'll have to deal with... If you wanted to be flexible about it, if you killed someone with the Black Unicorn then it's now an Enemy you have to re-defeat if you want take it, but that's if everyone was ok with the player doing *another* combat after the CvC one which is not permissible in the flowchart.

I don't think that Followers are interchangeable between the Necromancer, Ogre Chieftain, Ghoul or Minstrel.

Necromancer can enthral Spirits before battle.

Ogre Chieftain can dominate a defeated Monster.

Minstrel can charm an Animal before battle.

Ghoul can raise a defeated Enemy.

Each one of them has a different skill, these are italicized on the character cards, so once the connection to the original character is broken then the Creature is free from it's bonds, though it may be taken by one of the other characters who have these special skills.

The Staff of Mastery allows you to enslave one Enemy instead of battling it. I feel that if this is ditched or stolen, then the monster is still attached to it. In The_Warlock's situation where he was turned into a Toad and a nasty Leprechaun took his loot, I don't think the enslaved monster would have fought to protect it, it's just there for the pickins.

Not sure what the official byline is on this, but currently this is how I'm comfortable handling this situation.

Personally, I’m just for most rulings that make for a tougher square. So far, the toughest single enemy is 12/12. Just the thought of having a “landmine” square where the Ghoul / Ogre Chieftain / Necromancer / whomever can leave 13+ ST or CRA of bad guys in one spot… is just cool. Especially if it’s due to a death or toading meaning there’s a pile of loot there i.e. a reason to actually risk life and limb.

So, personally, I do it so that all Ex-enemy followers go on the square and combine to make it a real big fight if people really want the loot. Double or nothing, kind of.

But that’s just me.