Reinforced Deflectors is good, or some mechanism for getting a free reinforce action (e.g. After performing a maneuver, if you have remaining shields and did not overlap a ship or obstacle, perform a free reinforce action).

The ship does need a speed three turn around maneuver, or a speed 2 Talon roll, so you don't get trapped on large based ships.

I'd to see some mods that make it more common to see torpedoes and/or ion cannons on B-wings since that is a big part of what they do in canon. Reduce torp price, keep the target lock, add a Hit result, or all of the above.

Interesting thought with B Wings: B Wing only System slot that lets you shoot things you're bumped with.

THen the whole 'trapped on large base ships' is not a problem, it's a solution.

Errata E2 mod. Add:

You may equip one additional modification upgrade. Reduce the cost of equiped crew and modification upgrades by 1.

Example loadout: Inspiring recruit, Guidance Chips, and E2 now clock in at negative 1 point.

Tie/D or Reinforce would easily fix B-Wings. I personally would rather see 4 reinforced B-Wings across the table than those wookies (because its more thematic)

Alternatively, reload and a torpedo that doesn't make you spend the TL might help them too.

16 hours ago, D34d guru said:

Really don't Care what you suggest anyway. Your not the one Selling me the models so spend your energy at something your actually good at.

and toxic troll who isnt contributing anything weighs in, lol.

This conversation is what this board is about. no one is forcing you to be here.

3 hours ago, Khyros said:

And I don't mean tender loving care, but rather Twin Linked Cannon.

I've been thinking about making a joke for a while that the new gunpod TIE from Solo should come with a new "Twin Laser Cannon" upgrade to make imperials happy about breaking into new upgrades and give cannon ships some love

7 hours ago, Jadotch said:

Here was my solution.

and

i love both of these!

that said, mobility on the later card wouldnt solve the B-wings survivability-vs-damage-output problem so it would need to be coupled with something else. its thematic and fun, but sadly a missile or tlt kills b-wings just as quick in the front as the back. honestly if those 2 titles were combined its close to perfect... damage and mobility with counterplay to both

Image upload on the forums is broken for me, so here's the changes I have pegged for Community Mod in text form. For full changes see the B-wing post. The pilot costs will get tweaked after we get X-wings vs TIEs in a solid place, but it's still in the right ballpark to start.

Reinforced Shielding

• Modification. B-wing or G1-A Starfighter only. Limited.
• 0 / 0 / 0
• You may equip one additional modification. Once per round, after you execute a maneuver without bumping or overlapping, you may assign a reinforce token to this ship, with the fore side facing up.
• FAQ: As per the FFG rules, with the reinforce token on the fore side, it only triggers against attacks that are inside the defender's firing arc.

Gyroscopic Cockpit

• title. B-wing only.
• 0 / 0 / 0
• When you reveal a speed 1 <left turn> or <right turn> maneuver, you may treat it as a red speed 1 <left talon roll> or <right talon roll> of the same bearing as the revealed maneuver. When you reveal a 2 <kturn> maneuver, you may treat it as a red 3 <kturn> maneuver.

7 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

The B-Wing is already a tank; if you give it reinforce (please, FFG, no more small ship reinforce!!) or more AGI, it will be broken. The two risks you list are situational, and should be present for balance.

I think the best first attempt at a fix would be to move E2 to the title slot where it should be, allowing the ship the synergy of both a crew slot and a modification. And give a generic an EPT.

And, just like the T-65, the B-Wing does great in epic, so it's not weak. It's just not meant to be a dogfighter. It's mean to be a ship-buster. Some ships, when done right, will suck in 100/6. Because they are not mean to dogfight.

I think moving E/2 to the title slot is a really bad idea, because your wasting any potential from a future title that would combo with E/2 in its current state. (Or as suggested, a title that allows 2 mods; even if we have to retro t it to 0-2 point upgrades).

There’s actually been several homebrew fix titles that I would love to see made real in the future. Blade squadron vet for instance.

2 hours ago, AngryAlbatross said:

Tie/D or Reinforce would easily fix B-Wings. I personally would rather see 4 reinforced B-Wings across the table than those wookies (because its more thematic)

Alternatively, reload and a torpedo that doesn't make you spend the TL might help them too.

I was thinking about that. Maybe 1 point in the system slot for a reload action? Could also help missile/torp based TIE punishers.

8 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

I think moving E/2 to the title slot is a really bad idea, because your wasting any potential from a future title that would combo with E/2 in its current state. (Or as suggested, a title that allows 2 mods; even if we have to retro t it to 0-2 point upgrades).

There’s actually been several homebrew fix titles that I would love to see made real in the future. Blade squadron vet for instance.

Yeah but:

A. Right now the "title" is killing the mod slot, so it is an immediate FAQ based fix without a reprint

B. The E2 card really should be a title for consistency sake

C. Worry about title conflicts it when it is actually a thing.

D. Adding titles that add a second title is the same as a title that adds a second mod cuz E2 is in the way.

12 hours ago, Jadotch said:

Here was my solution.

and

Really like the ideas giving more unique maneuverability, similar to the Skyviper’s new title. Allowing the bWing a free barrel roll after a maneuver, or allowing a barrel roll after a red to unstress that maneuver, or like what you said with the 90 degree twist. Anything...

Also, giving it an evade when within arc makes sense. The bWing has a narrow profile that is SUPPOSED to help it when head on, but a barn door from the side.

Oh, and an epic slot for Dagger Squadron.

4 hours ago, MajorJuggler said:

Image upload on the forums is broken for me, so here's the changes I have pegged for Community Mod in text form. For full changes see the B-wing post. The pilot costs will get tweaked after we get X-wings vs TIEs in a solid place, but it's still in the right ballpark to start.

Reinforced Shielding

• Modification. B-wing or G1-A Starfighter only. Limited.
• 0 / 0 / 0
• You may equip one additional modification. Once per round, after you execute a maneuver without bumping or overlapping, you may assign a reinforce token to this ship, with the fore side facing up.
• FAQ: As per the FFG rules, with the reinforce token on the fore side, it only triggers against attacks that are inside the defender's firing arc.

Gyroscopic Cockpit

• title. B-wing only.
• 0 / 0 / 0
• When you reveal a speed 1 <left turn> or <right turn> maneuver, you may treat it as a red speed 1 <left talon roll> or <right talon roll> of the same bearing as the revealed maneuver. When you reveal a 2 <kturn> maneuver, you may treat it as a red 3 <kturn> maneuver.

They're OK, but not particularly fluffy, but the biggest sin IMO is they're boring. If you just make the B-wing another jouster without any defined role it just gets consigned to compete with all the other ships that can fit in that role (only one will come out on top). The reinforce action just plain sucks as a mechanic, even without the Auzituck's stupidly huge arc. Giving the B-wing another way to turn around does address one of the ship's weaknesses, but the B-wing is meant to be a poor dogfighter:

"The B-wing was a relatively poor dogfighter, but it was primarily designed as a "blockade buster" to attack and destroy large capital ships. As such, it was equipped with weaponry and systems normally reserved for much larger craft." (from Wookieepedia)

To me this says that the B-wing should be able to tank heavy damage, and make use of weapons designed to damage and/or disable bigger ships. The first is easy to achieve:

Quote

Hardened deflectors: [probably 0pts]

Modification, B-wing only.

After defending, if you suffered a combination of 3 or more damage and critical damage during the attack, recover 1 shield (up to your shield value).

You may equip 1 additional Modification upgrade.

It's just the Reinforced deflectors mod printed for the B-wing, but I think it fits perfectly. The B-wing's deflector shields are calibrated against weapons that bigger ships will typically employ (high damage missiles and lasers), but much weaker against things like a TIE fighter's weapons. This ups the B-wings efficiency by giving it 0-3 extra HP, depending on what's shooting at it. It's similar to a reinforce, but much more fluffy, and can't easily be gamed to make the B-wing another tanky, multi-evade rebel ship.

Representing the B-wing's preference for anti-capitol ship weapons, and giving it a more unique role in the rebel faction is also fairly easy to do IMO:

Quote

Advanced Targeting System: [probably 2-4pts]

System, B-wing only.

Your upgrade bar gains 1 cannon icon.

When attacking with a cannon secondary weapon, if you are instructed to "cancel all dice results", you may choose not to.

This upgrade allows the B-wing to act as a proper cannon platform akin to the TIE/D. You no longer have to choose between firing your ion cannon or dealing meaningful damage, as now you can do both at the same time. This also helps with the B-wing's manoeuvrability issues, as Ion'd/stressed targets are easier to line up subsequent shots on.

The third B-wing buff is for FFG to finally put their big boy pants on, and nerf the **** out of the TLT. Not only is it stupidly efficient, but it's a boring card, which adds nothing interesting to the game, other than hamstringing a bunch of older jousters. Plus you have all the Ghost + Phantom combo nonsense.

5 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Yeah but:

A. Right now the "title" is killing the mod slot, so it is an immediate FAQ based fix without a reprint

B. The E2 card really should be a title for consistency sake

C. Worry about title conflicts it when it is actually a thing.

D. Adding titles that add a second title is the same as a title that adds a second mod cuz E2 is in the way.

Each of those 4 points just further re-affirms the idea that making E/2 a title is a waste of everyone's time and FAQ space involved. You get the same results from a new title allowing for doubles whether the card is a mod or title, so why not save everyone's time since the card is already a mod and make a double mod slot title that also does something fun like add free barrel rolls on red manuvere's or something? Also double mod > than double title because it allows for more flexible build options and access to mods from future waves.

Your consistency concern is hardly valid anyway. Games always have one off's and special condition cards, the E/2 is nothing new to X-wing. Why is ATC a system upgrade if it's X/1 only? shouldn't it just be included in the title? Or did someone at FFG think "Well maybe the X/1 deserves a system slot, and we'll make ATC a system to show Vader's uniqueness, but we're not adding it in as part of the title because maybe someone will want to run one of the other system upgrade cards on their TIE Advanced".

4 hours ago, CRCL said:

They're OK, but not particularly fluffy, but the biggest sin IMO is they're boring. If you just make the B-wing another jouster without any defined role it just gets consigned to compete with all the other ships that can fit in that role (only one will come out on top). The reinforce action just plain sucks as a mechanic, even without the Auzituck's stupidly huge arc. Giving the B-wing another way to turn around does address one of the ship's weaknesses, but the B-wing is meant to be a poor dogfighter:

"The B-wing was a relatively poor dogfighter, but it was primarily designed as a "blockade buster" to attack and destroy large capital ships. As such, it was equipped with weaponry and systems normally reserved for much larger craft." (from Wookieepedia)

To me this says that the B-wing should be able to tank heavy damage, and make use of weapons designed to damage and/or disable bigger ships. The first is easy to achieve:

It's just the Reinforced deflectors mod printed for the B-wing, but I think it fits perfectly. The B-wing's deflector shields are calibrated against weapons that bigger ships will typically employ (high damage missiles and lasers), but much weaker against things like a TIE fighter's weapons. This ups the B-wings efficiency by giving it 0-3 extra HP, depending on what's shooting at it. It's similar to a reinforce, but much more fluffy, and can't easily be gamed to make the B-wing another tanky, multi-evade rebel ship.

Representing the B-wing's preference for anti-capitol ship weapons, and giving it a more unique role in the rebel faction is also fairly easy to do IMO:

This upgrade allows the B-wing to act as a proper cannon platform akin to the TIE/D. You no longer have to choose between firing your ion cannon or dealing meaningful damage, as now you can do both at the same time. This also helps with the B-wing's manoeuvrability issues, as Ion'd/stressed targets are easier to line up subsequent shots on.

The third B-wing buff is for FFG to finally put their big boy pants on, and nerf the **** out of the TLT. Not only is it stupidly efficient, but it's a boring card, which adds nothing interesting to the game, other than hamstringing a bunch of older jousters. Plus you have all the Ghost + Phantom combo nonsense.

The 'don't cancel' thing is a great idea. I'd love to see it be a system that gives a Cannon slot, meaning you're free to invest in Linked Battery if you want to.

It's an idea that's been floating around for ages in various contexts; the B Wing is probably the best one.

7 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Each of those 4 points just further re-affirms the idea that making E/2 a title is a waste of everyone's time and FAQ space involved. You get the same results from a new title allowing for doubles whether the card is a mod or title, so why not save everyone's time since the card is already a mod and make a double mod slot title that also does something fun like add free barrel rolls on red manuvere's or something? Also double mod > than double title because it allows for more flexible build options and access to mods from future waves.

Your consistency concern is hardly valid anyway. Games always have one off's and special condition cards, the E/2 is nothing new to X-wing. Why is ATC a system upgrade if it's X/1 only? shouldn't it just be included in the title? Or did someone at FFG think "Well maybe the X/1 deserves a system slot, and we'll make ATC a system to show Vader's uniqueness, but we're not adding it in as part of the title because maybe someone will want to run one of the other system upgrade cards on their TIE Advanced".

Like we are worried about the length of the FAQ at this point?? And who says we are going to see a B-wing fix expac anytime soon. Wouldn't it be nice to see an E2 B-wing with chips, like technically tomorrow, with no effort at all but a little red ink??

And I'm pretty sure you answered your own question about ATC.

23 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

To all of those proposing giving the Reinforce action to B-Wings, I’m curious: how do you plan to implement that when the B-Wing cardboard doesn’t have a line separating the front half from the back half?

My guess is the missing SKU # is an official FFG "Sharpie" just for that problem

12 hours ago, CRCL said:

They're OK, but not particularly fluffy, but the biggest sin IMO is they're boring. If you just make the B-wing another jouster without any defined role it just gets consigned to compete with all the other ships that can fit in that role (only one will come out on top). The reinforce action just plain sucks as a mechanic, even without the Auzituck's stupidly huge arc. Giving the B-wing another way to turn around does address one of the ship's weaknesses, but the B-wing is meant to be a poor dogfighter:

"The B-wing was a relatively poor dogfighter, but it was primarily designed as a "blockade buster" to attack and destroy large capital ships. As such, it was equipped with weaponry and systems normally reserved for much larger craft." (from Wookieepedia)

A forward-arc only reinforce token is inherently going to be very good against capital ships, since you won't have a problem keeping them in arc. It won't be as good vs dogfighters that can get out of your arc and bypass the reinforce token. So it does still fit the lore OK.

In this case, boring is a feature not a bug. To keep Community Mod as accessible as possible, I am trying to keep the changes as close to the original design as possible. The goal is to make all the ships viable, not make X-wing 2.0. If I do as suggested and go gung-ho on every ship, the Mod will probably lose more overall interest as it strays further and further away from the stock game.

Besides, the B-wing and X-wing already have sufficient differences that I'm not too worried about the overlap.

On 11/27/2017 at 11:00 PM, MajorJuggler said:

Core Philosophy and Long-Term Goals

1. Improve balance and build diversity for each pilot in the game. Most pilots should ideally have at least a couple different upgrade options that are competitively viable. Perfect balance is never achievable but it can be made significantly better than the stock game. The most recognizable ships like X-wings and TIE Fighters should err on the side being good, without changing their core function.
2. Zero long-term powercreep. The existing pilots and upgrade cards should eventually reach a stable set of point values and card text changes. When FFG releases new ships, pilots, and upgrade cards, those future cards will get rebalanced relative to the existing power curve in this mod. Since FFG consistently adds gradual power creep to the stock game, this means that eventually the stock game’s power curve will inflate to the point where the “best new stuff” in future expansions is going to get immediately nerfed for use in this mod, in order to keep the old pilots and archetypes competitively viable.
3. Stay as close as possible to FFG’s stock “X-wing 1.0” design from a mechanical perspective. This means no new dice, no new dials*, and no fundamental changes to primary weapon turrets other than point adjustments. There’s a lot of good ideas that could get incorporated in a real “X-wing 2.0” but that is not the goal of this mod.
4. When possible keep the changes as simple as possible. Anything that reduces the barrier of entry of going from stock X-wing to "Mod-Wing" is good because it will increase the playerbase, and less complicated changes are usually more fun too. Keeping things simple includes introducing as few new custom cards as possible, although this is at odds with goal #1.
5. Use math to obtain initial estimates for ship balance, and further refine with analytical playtesting and tournament results. Any mathematical model has limitations, and the approach used here is no exception, the details of which are beyond the scope of this post. However, it is consistently capable of calculating ideal costs to within a point or so, given that the target efficiency is known. The greater challenge is identifying what the target efficiencies should be for various archetypes, and also identifying “Combo Wing” card synergies. Data driven analytical playtesting is essential to both, with the ultimate test being tournament results.
6. Eventually explore making balance changes voted on by committee. Several people have mentioned the community-driven 40k ITC project, where format changes are voted on by a committee of tournament organizers. I think this is a great direction to go long-term. This mod is probably more ambitious than 40k ITC from a technical balance perspective, so the implementation of a voting board would probably end up looking a little different than it does for 40k ITC. Once the mod is close to a stable release I would like to see what that kind of approach would practically look like for this format, and gauge the community’s interest in participating, provided that the mod stays true to the previously listed “Core Philosophies” here. However, since this mod is just getting up and running and I'm the only one really driving it, it’s currently a one-man show when it comes to making executive decisions. The entire power curve is getting readjusted from scratch, so this is the most effective way to get the initial version off the ground with consistency and reasonable technical accuracy.
7. Balance Epic too. This mod currently only applies to the standard 100/6 format, but if it gets enough interest then it can also get adapted for 300 point Epic as well.

* X-wings and B-wings don’t get new maneuver dials, but they do get access to additional maneuvers via new custom upgrade cards. However, this is the only time ship maneuvers have been tweaked, and should be seen as an exception, not a rule.

12 hours ago, CRCL said:

The third B-wing buff is for FFG to finally put their big boy pants on, and nerf the **** out of the TLT. Not only is it stupidly efficient, but it's a boring card, which adds nothing interesting to the game, other than hamstringing a bunch of older jousters. Plus you have all the Ghost + Phantom combo nonsense.

These are my Turret Changes:

On 1/25/2018 at 12:43 AM, MajorJuggler said:

Turrets

Changes are highlighted.

Overview

• Turrets other than TLT have only been been balanced for PS2 Y-wings so far. Final costs are tentative, but the costs here should be in the right ballpark.
• Twin Laser Turret no longer grants the 2nd attack when shooting at range 3 out of arc, but has had its cost reduced to compensate.
• Blaster Turret still requires a focus to use, but no longer requires a focus be spent to perform the attack.
• Synced Turret no longer requires a Target Lock to use.
• Blaster Turret, Dorsal Turret, and Synced Turret have had wording changes that now provide increased efficiency if the defender is in arc.

Autoblaster Turret

• Attack range: 1
• Attack dice: 2
• Attack requirement: [none]
• Cost: changed from 4 to 3 / 3 / 4
• Card text: Attack: Attack 1 ship (even a ship outside your firing arc). Your hit results cannot be canceled by defense dice. The defender may cancel critical results before hit results.

Blaster Turret

• Attack range: 1-2
• Attack dice: 3
• Attack requirement: [focus]
• Cost: changed from 6 to 9 / 11 / 13
• Card text: Attack: Attack 1 ship (even a ship outside your firing arc). If the defender is inside your primary firing arc, you may change one blank result to a <eye> result.
• Note: removed the requirement of spending a focus to perform this attack, increased the efficiency when the target is in arc, and adjusted the cost.

Dorsal Turret

• Attack range: 1-2
• Attack dice: 2
• Attack requirement: [none]
• Cost: changed from 6 to 3 / 4 / 5
• Card text: Attack: Attack 1 ship (even a ship outside your firing arc). If the target of this attack is inside your primary firing arc or at range 1, roll 1 additional attack die.

Ion Cannon Turret

• Attack range: 1-2
• Attack dice: 3
• Attack requirement: [none]
• Cost: changed from 10 to 7 / 8 / 9
• Card text: Attack: Attack 1 ship (even a ship outside your firing arc). If this attack hits the target ship, the ship suffers 1 damage and receives 1 ion token. Then cancel all dice results.

Synced Turret

• Attack range: 1-2
• Attack dice: 3
• Attack requirement: [none]
• Cost: changed from 8 to 10 / 12 / 14
• Card text: Attack: Attack 1 ship (even a ship outside your firing arc). If the defender is inside your primary firing arc, immediately after you roll attack dice you may acquire a target lock on the defender.
• Note: removed the target lock requirement to attack; if target is in-arc-check then it grants an immediate target lock instead of dice reroll; changed cost.

Synced turret FAQ: The text "If the defender is inside your primary firing arc" only applies when performing the synced turret attack, not for primary weapon attacks or other secondary weapon attacks.

Twin Laser Turret

• Attack range: 2-3
• Attack dice: 3
• Attack requirement: [none]
• Cost: changed from 12 to 8 / 10 / 12
• Card text: Attack: Attack 1 ship (even a ship outside your firing arc). If the defender is at range 2 or is in your primary firing arc, perform this attack twice, otherwise perform this attack once. Each time this attack hits, the defender suffers 1 damage. Then cancel all dice results.

The turret changes have not been tested much yet, so if you want to help feel free to join the X-wing Community Mod Facebook Group, and lets get some testing in!

I always thought a title that gave you a 5 point discount on cannons would do the trick.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Like we are worried about the length of the FAQ at this point?? And who says we are going to see a B-wing fix expac anytime soon. Wouldn't it be nice to see an E2 B-wing with chips, like technically tomorrow, with no effort at all but a little red ink??

And I'm pretty sure you answered your own question about ATC.

No, Seeing E/2 as a title would not be helpful tomorrow, because it doesn't help the B-wing. At all.

What crew is so important that you absolutely need to pair them with chips for them to work in an ordnance E/2 build? Answer: None.

Honestly you don't need GC if your running Maul or Saw. Yeah you can pay +1 extra to run hera, nien numb, Kanan, C-3PO, etc. but are you really going to sink that many points into your already point heavy ordnance build? I don't think so.