3 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

Its worth noting that "After Attacking" and "After Defending" keywords are seen at Step9, so imo anything that happens before Step9 is still during the attack.
Also, Dace would trigger when the Ion is assigned. This happens before the Red Dice are even cancelled, so clearly the target is still defending as the dice are still on the table.

The AFTER ATTACKING and AFTER DEFENDING are actually list in both step 8 and step 9. That's why I believe Dace triggers in step 8 and because of the special usage of the term when.

To throw another point somewhat (but not entirely) in @Stoneface favor is the Kylo/Vader interaction. I'll Show You The Dark Side works when the ship suffers critical damage during an attack. Notably, this isn't the same wording as Jostero, so this isn't a perfect analogy. Darth Vader allows you, after attacking in Step 8, to suffer 2 damage to cause the defender to suffer 1 critical damage. However, it won't activate ISYTDS, since that card specifies a timing window, and Vader happens outside that window.

So I think I've been moving slowly towards Jostero working on anything Step 8 and later. I think Kylo and ISYTDS might be enough for me to change my mind on this, but I'll reiterate that a FAQ which clearly specifies the steps where Jostero can or cannot trigger would be hugely helpful. And that pretty much any ruling will make me happy. I'll note again that while the windows are different, they seem close enough that in the absence of more information, I think might be illustrative.

However, I really am thinking Dace Bonearm happens mid step-7. The latest FAQ allows Harpoons to explode from crits that were uncancelled by defense dice despite a "cancel all dice" attack, and allows the explosion to happen then. I'd put Dace in a similar (not quite the same) target window, triggering at some point during the attack. It would be nice if all things which are triggered during an attack were put off until the "after attacking/defending" steps, but there are a few things which interrupt it, and I don't really have a reason to suppose that Dace would be different and be postponed like a Quickdraw attack.

I think this conversation really illustrates how nice it would be if FFG actually designed cards within that timing window, and actually printed what step they occurred on the card.

"When attacking (step 7.ii), you may...[ability]"

That sort of thing. It would:

1) Force designers to actually think about when things occur relative to other things when designing.

2) Reduce reliance on referencing the timing chart in game, as the info would already be presented.

3) Keep the FAQ from getting out of control, both because they would design things more thoughtfully and answer questions before they're asked.

4) Due to 1, 2, and 3, improve the overall games experience for TOs, judges, and players.

The timing chart was a step in the right direction, but really should have been used as a tool for card design rather than a catch-all solution to timing questions which doesn't catch all because the designers don't use it.

53 minutes ago, Sekac said:

I think this conversation really illustrates how nice it would be if FFG actually designed cards within that timing window, and actually printed what step they occurred on the card.

"When attacking (step 7.ii), you may...[ability]"

That sort of thing. It would:

1) Force designers to actually think about when things occur relative to other things when designing.

2) Reduce reliance on referencing the timing chart in game, as the info would already be presented.

3) Keep the FAQ from getting out of control, both because they would design things more thoughtfully and answer questions before they're asked.

4) Due to 1, 2, and 3, improve the overall games experience for TOs, judges, and players.

The timing chart was a step in the right direction, but really should have been used as a tool for card design rather than a catch-all solution to timing questions which doesn't catch all because the designers don't use it.

They,F is FG, was doing pretty good. If they had used after instead of when with Dace' s ability there might not be this problem. Conversationally it works but not in this instance. It might be a regional thing. If you've watched Blue Bloods you might have noticed Danny say, "Do you want me to come with", dropping the "you" at the end. Looking through pilot cards that used when, it was with a specific timing window. Attacking or defending being the most prevalent.

Now they're throwing in conditions and the "who triggers what and when" is getting harder to answer. I can remember threads years ago where the lack of templating was commented on as being the source of confusion. Of course changing developers has only exacerbated the problem. The furious pace of releases hasn't helped either.

Edit: For S & Gs, I checked the Oxford English dictionary and the special usage of when isn't listed there but it was in the Oxford American English dictionary where I originally found it. Maybe all the problems could be solved by using the Queen' s English?

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

However, I really am thinking Dace Bonearm happens mid step-7. The latest FAQ allows Harpoons to explode from crits that were uncancelled by defense dice despite a "cancel all dice" attack, and allows the explosion to happen then. I'd put Dace in a similar (not quite the same) target window, triggering at some point during the attack. It would be nice if all things which are triggered during an attack were put off until the "after attacking/defending" steps, but there are a few things which interrupt it, and I don't really have a reason to suppose that Dace would be different and be postponed like a Quickdraw attack.

There's only two reasons that I have to think Dace triggers in step 8. Well, 2-1/2, actually. The first is pretty solid but is bolstered by the second. He has a pilot ability that fits almost perfectly in step 8. I say almost because of the use of when. The second is the special usage of when to mean after. I found that definition in the Oxford Dictionary of American English. Curiously, that special definition doesn't exist in the Oxford English dictionary. The half reason is the previous uses of when in pilot abilities. They are very specific, usually when attacking or when defending. Even Bossk, who interrupts the attack sequence, has a specific timing window.

I just don't understand the argument that Dace's ability ought to be treated as "after attacking". It's phrased the way it is so that it can be triggered as a result either of attacks which assign Ion tokens or as a result of other effects which do so. Ion Cannon Turret assigns an Ion token after comparing dice, but before damage is dealt, a window during which I think it's clear there is still a "defender". Dace triggers as soon as an Ion token is assigned, and if it's from an Ion Cannon Turret, that's before damage is dealt, and therefore while there is still a defender. That's my understanding anyway, but I just want to understand the actual truth of the matter, so if I'm wrong I'd love to know how and why.

1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

Now they're throwing in conditions and the "who triggers what and when" is getting harder to answer. I can remember threads years ago where the lack of templating was commented on as being the source of confusion. Of course changing developers has only exacerbated the problem. The furious pace of releases hasn't helped either.

All of these issues would be mitigated by proper templating and formatting.

New developers would just use existing templates for new ideas.

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

All of these issues would be mitigated by proper templating and formatting.

New developers would just use existing templates for new ideas.

Yeah, so WTF didn’t FFG do this at any time in the past 5 years?! Especially when tractor beam was causing so many semantic headaches.

I suspect because they were turned off to the idea of additional work up front and/or they had already started doing it one way, and didn't want to errata every timing relevant card up to that point.

Or possibly it never occurred to them and they're in denial about its benefits. It's always easier to think your current methods are best than it is to analyze and critique your processes.

8 hours ago, Incard said:

I just don't understand the argument that Dace's ability ought to be treated as "after attacking". It's phrased the way it is so that it can be triggered as a result either of attacks which assign Ion tokens or as a result of other effects which do so. Ion Cannon Turret assigns an Ion token after comparing dice, but before damage is dealt, a window during which I think it's clear there is still a "defender". Dace triggers as soon as an Ion token is assigned, and if it's from an Ion Cannon Turret, that's before damage is dealt, and therefore while there is still a defender. That's my understanding anyway, but I just want to understand the actual truth of the matter, so if I'm wrong I'd love to know how and why.

Here's the problem in a nutshell, I think it is at least.

If the damage caused by Dace' s ability is part of the ion attack then the timing window never opens for Jostero to trigger. That's one side of the discussion.

I maintain that Dace' s ability triggers in step 8, after the ion attack has concluded and the "target" of the attack is referred to as "the defender" as a matter of convenience to identify whose who for abilities that trigger After attacking and After defending.

If you replace the word when in the description of Dace' s ability with the word after it's apparent that Dace triggers, after the ion attack is completed, in step 8. Meaning the damage he caused was not part of the ion attack and then can trigger Jostero.

I also noted a special usage of the word when to mean after, as in"When you finish dinner we can play X-wing". This definition came from the Oxford Dictionary of American English and is not present in the Oxford English Dictionary. Who ever wrote the card might've used this convention.

I also noted that a search of other pilot abilities that used the word when referenced a particular time frame as when attacking, when defending, etc.. The three highest PS pilots of B-Wings and Bossk are several examples.

That's the not so short version of the discussion. Because FFG lacks a template for the wording on cards and changes designers often, there's a lack of consistency in the wording that results in threads like this.

Ah. Thanks for the explanation. I have some difficulties with this line of reasoning.

1) Jostero's ability is what we're really trying to figure this out for, so that should definitely not be a reason.

2) I understand what you're saying about "when" and "after", but Dace doesn't say "when (or after) attacking" he says "when an ion token is assigned". Those other pilots you mention are "when attacking."

It would be cool if Jostero could trigger from Dace, but it seems it's not supported by the rules.

15 hours ago, Incard said:

I just don't understand the argument that Dace's ability ought to be treated as "after attacking". It's phrased the way it is so that it can be triggered as a result either of attacks which assign Ion tokens or as a result of other effects which do so. Ion Cannon Turret assigns an Ion token after comparing dice, but before damage is dealt, a window during which I think it's clear there is still a "defender". Dace triggers as soon as an Ion token is assigned, and if it's from an Ion Cannon Turret, that's before damage is dealt, and therefore while there is still a defender. That's my understanding anyway, but I just want to understand the actual truth of the matter, so if I'm wrong I'd love to know how and why.

Quickdraw triggers after an attack in step 9, despite losing a shield in step 7, and having language which doesn't specify triggering after an attack.

On the other hand, Harpooned! triggers at the end of step 6, and doesn't get pushed into step 8.

Personally, I think Dace ought to trigger when the ion is assigned, even in the middle of an attack. I think there's more weight to that argument. However, there's enough there to the other side of the discussion that it'd be worth having it cleared up entirely in the FAQ.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Personally, I think Dace ought to trigger when the ion is assigned, even in the middle of an attack. I think there's more weight to that argument. However, there's enough there to the other side of the discussion that it'd be worth having it cleared up entirely in the FAQ.

If there was an ability that assigned an ion to a ship to change a focus to an evade, for instance, then dace could jump all over that and it would be totally in an attack, since we don’t even have hit determination yet.

but unfortunately all the ionizing secondary weapons assign tokens after a hit is determined but before dice are canceled or while damage is being dealt (ion torps). This is a very confusing time and not specifically called out in the timing chart unless we really are supposed to assign ALL abilities that trigger off of damage/tokens as happening ‘after’ attacking/defending in step 8/9. Even though they logically trigger during step 7.

what a miss. Er, mess.

13 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

If there was an ability that assigned an ion to a ship to change a focus to an evade, for instance, then dace could jump all over that and it would be totally in an attack, since we don’t even have hit determination yet.

but unfortunately all the ionizing secondary weapons assign tokens after a hit is determined but before dice are canceled or while damage is being dealt (ion torps). This is a very confusing time and not specifically called out in the timing chart unless we really are supposed to assign ALL abilities that trigger off of damage/tokens as happening ‘after’ attacking/defending in step 8/9. Even though they logically trigger during step 7.

what a miss. Er, mess.

In many ways, if everything got pushed off to steps 8/9 unless they specifically mentioned a timing step (such as Rebel Captive or R3-A2), that'd make things nicer. Of course, that'd mean Harpooned! would be shuffled off to step 8 and not trigger in between the two attacks of a TLT volley, as FFG put in their latest FAQ...

7 hours ago, Incard said:

Ah. Thanks for the explanation. I have some difficulties with this line of reasoning.

1) Jostero's ability is what we're really trying to figure this out for, so that should definitely not be a reason.

2) I understand what you're saying about "when" and "after", but Dace doesn't say "when (or after) attacking" he says "when an ion token is assigned". Those other pilots you mention are "when attacking."

It would be cool if Jostero could trigger from Dace, but it seems it's not supported by the rules.

This discussion was started by the OP on the Dace/Jostero interaction but it's more than just that one interaction. It's about the timing sequence and possible future interactions. There's viable arguments on both sides. The biggest one being "is his damage part of the attack?" If the answer is YES then his ability triggers after the ion token is presented and before dice are cancelled. A reasonable interpretation.

If the answer is NO, then Dace triggers after the dice are cancelled and in step 8 which is reasonable. In this case Jostero would trigger. This is also reasonable.

Dace arrived in the Most Wanted (Wave VI) expansion, long before the Attack Timing Chart came out. His ability didn't raise any questions because nobody could take advantage of it. In the same way that defenders could always modify attack dice before the attacker could, it didn't really matter because there were few if any ways to do this early in the game.

The game is now five years old and not only do we have pilot abilities that can mod dice, there are EPTs, upgrades that do the same and attacks that happen outside of the attack sequence but with secondary weapons that aren't equipped. Looking at Snap Shot for this last one. So awhile back came the attack timing chart to make sense of the Who and When of the abilities. The problem is, because there was no template for wording cards, some of the older mechanics don't fit the chart perfectly. Hence the errata and clarifications. This fit problem continues with Condition Cards like Harpooned which trigger very late, after step 10 I think, according to the latest FAQ.

That's the back story. Dace' s ability fits nicely into step 8 but that depends on when, when is.