@Stoneface In the timing chart, between steps 6 & 7, the determination of "Did the attack hit?" is made. If that's a "Yes", an Ion token is assigned (possibly triggering Dace, and then possibly Jostero). I think you're with me so far. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that after this point, there is no more "defender" and therefore Jostero can trigger from Dace's ability. I disagree. In step 7 itself (after the Dace-window triggering moment of "Did the attack hit?"), parts iii and iv still refer to a "defender". So long as there is a "defender", Jostero does not trigger.

EDIT: sorry, I misread you, Stoneface. You're saying Ion and Dace apply "After attacking". I'm suggesting that's not what Dace's card says. His ability triggers when the Ion is applied, which is, I think when the "hit" is determined, in the box between 6 & 7.

34 minutes ago, Incard said:

In step 7 itself (after the Dace-window triggering moment of "Did the attack hit?"), parts iii and iv still refer to a "defender". So long as there is a "defender", Jostero does not trigger.

I suppose you could argue that at no point does the timing chart say: "now the defender is no longer defending", so there's a bit of wiggle room in the interpretation (not much IMO).

I'd be pretty confident in ruling that the defender is still classified as the defender right up until the chart ends after step #10.

22 minutes ago, CRCL said:

I’d be pretty confident in ruling that the defender is still classified as the defender right up until the chart ends after step #10.

But step 8 states that abilities that trigger after defending happen. Does that mean the defender isn’t defending any more but can still be called out as the defender?

Dace would have already triggered well before Step 8, as would jostero ability (which wouldn’t work since the defender is still defending...)

i guess we need to talk about any other abilities that list defenders, ships defending and before/after defending/attacking.

1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

But step 8 states that abilities that trigger after defending happen. Does that mean the defender isn’t defending any more but can still be called out as the defender?

Dace would have already triggered well before Step 8, as would jostero ability (which wouldn’t work since the defender is still defending...)

i guess we need to talk about any other abilities that list defenders, ships defending and before/after defending/attacking.

I think calling out defender and attacker in Steps 8 & 9 is convenient to identify who's who in the current attack. I'm not sure how else you could do it.

Victor Hel and Dengar both have after defending as abilities. Hel in 8 and Dengar in 9. I'm looking for others.

I still think the ion token is given in Step 7 because that's where the "Deal Damage" step is. This is also where the dice are cancelled. I'm not fully convinced that Dace and Jostero trigger here as well.

The reason I think the defender is no longer defending after Step 7 is completed is because of the arrows leading to the "Is this the first attack..." box above Step 8. If yes you're directed to Step 2 not Step 1. If the answer is no you're directed to Step 8.

1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

But step 8 states that abilities that trigger after defending happen. Does that mean the defender isn’t defending any more but can still be called out as the defender?

Dace would have already triggered well before Step 8, as would jostero ability (which wouldn’t work since the defender is still defending...)

i guess we need to talk about any other abilities that list defenders, ships defending and before/after defending/attacking.

Look at the wording on Ruthlessness and tell me where you think it triggers on the Attack Chart.

Double Edge is another one for Step 9

5 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

But step 8 states that abilities that trigger after defending happen. Does that mean the defender isn’t defending any more but can still be called out as the defender?

Probably. Dengar triggers after defending and grants an attack vs the attacker...

3 hours ago, skotothalamos said:

Probably. Dengar triggers after defending and grants an attack vs the attacker...

Actually that's true. From page 11 of the FAQ:

41 minutes ago, CoffeeMinion said:

So I think by step 8 the "attack" is over. Step 9, then, is there to see if another attack happens "immediately" or if the next ship activates.

This is where I disagree. I think the attack is over when the ion token is given and dice cancelled in step 7. Dace triggers in step 8 BECAUSE his ability is not an attack.

If you replace the word when with the word after in Dace' s ability, wouldn't he trigger in step 8? I think a new person is writing the cards. Look at the top 3 B-Wing pilots. They all have abilities that begin with when but the timing is very specific. As in when attacking. There's nothing that I can find to indicate that Dace would interrupt the attack to trigger in step 7.

As I mentioned to @GrimmyV look at the wording on the EPT RUTHLESSNESS. If the attack hits, another point of damage is given to another ship at range 1 of the defender. This would trigger in step 8. The attack is over by the end of step 7.

Ok. So what about Tourani Kulda, does his bulleye arc trigger Jostero? (if the enemy takes damage offcourse)

Or is his ability still part of the attack?

46 minutes ago, eagletsi111 said:

Ok. So what about Tourani Kulda, does his bulleye arc trigger Jostero? (if the enemy takes damage offcourse)

Or is his ability still part of the attack?

Says after an attack, so no it’s not part of an attack, and lists no defender at all, just unfortunate souls caught in a narrow arc

For what it's worth, I looked up when in the dictionary. It lists a special usage of the word to mean after.

Jostero couldn't be possibly activated from the Harpooned! facedown damage because being dealt a damage card isn't the same thing as suffering damage. That's why Jostero can't perform an attack against a ship which has "Black Market Slicer Tools" activated against it.

For how long is someone defending against an attack? At very least through Step 7. Arguably through Step 10, because they are still "the defender" until then.

Given the wording of Jostero, I'd be inclined to rule out Jostero getting a free attack against any ship which suffers damage at any time in the attack flowchart (steps 1 through 10), unless it wasn't the defender at all. For instance, Jostero could attack someone who Dace Bonearm'ed if they were caught in an Ion Torpedo splash, other than the initial target of the Ion torpedo.

9 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

For how long is someone defending against an attack? At very least through Step 7. Arguably through Step 10, because they are still "the defender" until then.

Given the wording of Jostero, I'd be inclined to rule out Jostero getting a free attack against any ship which suffers damage at any time in the attack flowchart (steps 1 through 10), unless it wasn't the defender at all. For instance, Jostero could attack someone who Dace Bonearm'ed if they were caught in an Ion Torpedo splash, other than the initial target of the Ion torpedo.

The "target" ship ceases to be defending when step 7 is completed because in step 8 the attack chart references after defending. FFG could've referred to it in another way but defender works. Also the argument that it remains the defender(still defending) thru step 10 is weak because if there's an ability that triggers in step 9, like Jostero's, step 10 isn't reached. Obviously I'm omitting a weapon that attacks twice like TLT or Cluster Missiles, though the second attack would finish the same way.

Jostero's ability and the wording on his card and Dace's ability and wording fit nicely into steps 9 & 8 respectively.

I mentioned previously that I believe that Dace's ability triggers in step 8. There's a special usage of when which means after. As in "When you're finished talking on the phone come see me". If you replace when with after in the wording on Dace' s card, I think it's obvious that he triggers in step 8. That would allow Jostero to trigger in step 9.

As for Jostero not triggering on the face down damage card from HARPOONED I disagree with you. I'm assuming that you mean the card from the Action to remove the condition. The restrictions and requirements for Jostero to use his ability are plainly expressed and I don't think there's anything in the rules, Written or Intended, that would prevent his ability to trigger.

2 hours ago, Stoneface said:

The restrictions and requirements for Jostero to use his ability are plainly expressed and I don't think there's anything in the rules, Written or Intended, that would prevent his ability to trigger.

Sorry, receiving face up or face down damage cards is not the same as suffering damage or critical damage. So a Seismic Bomb will cause damage and trigger the Captain J, but a proton bomb would not. There’s other abilities that trigger off being dealt a damage card and not just suffering damage, in contrast. The Harpooned! Condition actually has examples of suffering damage and being dealt a damage card.

Somewhat related is Xizor’s ability to let someone else suffer his uncanceled hits or crits when defending. Attacks that cancel dice and cause him to suffer damage will not trigger his ability because it’s not an uncanceled result, it’s just suffered damage. An Advanced Homer could totally deal him a faceup card with no problem. And I think that’s part of step 7.

The differences are subtle but they are there.

2 hours ago, Stoneface said:

e argument that it remains the defender(still defending) thru step 10 is weak because if there's an ability that triggers in step 9, like Jostero's, step 10 isn't reached.

The latest FAQ states that ‘after attack resolves’ abilities trigger after step 10. Just to muddy the waters. Appearantly attacks are happening without attackers or defenders or attacking or defending for a couple steps. Man I hate the timing chart so much.

2 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

The latest FAQ states that ‘after attack resolves’ abilities trigger after step 10. Just to muddy the waters. Appearantly attacks are happening without attackers or defenders or attacking or defending for a couple steps. Man I hate the timing chart so much.

Ok, now I'm effing confused. What's an example of an ability that triggers "after an attack resolves"? Plus you never get to step 10 if no ships are destroyed!

Whoever wrote that "clarification" surely is guilty of WWI. (Writing While Impaired). What began as a relatively easy answer to the OPs question about Jostero and Dace is, oh crap, I don't know what it has become.

I'm with you, I'm beginning to hate that timing chart.

3 hours ago, Stoneface said:

Ok, now I'm effing confused. What's an example of an ability that triggers "after an attack resolves"? Plus you never get to step 10 if no ships are destroyed!

Whoever wrote that "clarification" surely is guilty of WWI. (Writing While Impaired). What began as a relatively easy answer to the OPs question about Jostero and Dace is, oh crap, I don't know what it has become.

I'm with you, I'm beginning to hate that timing chart.

The closest thing to "after an attack resolves" I have found so far is Boba Fett crew that is "After performing an attack" so I am not sure where that came from.

Edit: Darth Vader crew is also "After you perform an attack" so again out of luck so far.

Edit 2: Found it. Harpoon missile condition is applied "after the attack resolves" and now I remember why it was added. This was so that a ship destroyed by the harpoon would not then receive the condition prior to being "destroyed" then having to splash damage to other ships at range one when removed from the table due to being "destroyed".

8 hours ago, Stoneface said:

The "target" ship ceases to be defending when step 7 is completed because in step 8 the attack chart references after defending. FFG could've referred to it in another way but defender works. Also the argument that it remains the defender(still defending) thru step 10 is weak because if there's an ability that triggers in step 9, like Jostero's, step 10 isn't reached. Obviously I'm omitting a weapon that attacks twice like TLT or Cluster Missiles, though the second attack would finish the same way.

Jostero's ability and the wording on his card and Dace's ability and wording fit nicely into steps 9 & 8 respectively.

I mentioned previously that I believe that Dace's ability triggers in step 8. There's a special usage of when which means after. As in "When you're finished talking on the phone come see me". If you replace when with after in the wording on Dace' s card, I think it's obvious that he triggers in step 8. That would allow Jostero to trigger in step 9.

As for Jostero not triggering on the face down damage card from HARPOONED I disagree with you. I'm assuming that you mean the card from the Action to remove the condition. The restrictions and requirements for Jostero to use his ability are plainly expressed and I don't think there's anything in the rules, Written or Intended, that would prevent his ability to trigger.

If community consensus is that Jostero can work off damage dealt in steps 8 & 9, I think that's probably fine.

I'm not sure on Dace dealing damage at 8, however. Based on discussions of Dace and Maul, folks (well, those who participated) had generally come to the conclusion that Dace's damage is dealt when ion is assigned--hence step 7--rather than after attacking (when Maul could remove stress). I think there's some precedent for such a view of Dace. Harpooned! for example triggers in the middle of an attack (late step 6) per the latest FAQ, so that it happens before damage is dealt. Likewise, I see Dace's trigger happening in Step 7, so before the target ceases to be the defender.

If both are step 8 abilities, well, that'll be really cool. Use Maul to reroll a die on your attack, clear the stress, then use Dace's ability to ping an extra damage. Or, if you've rolled really good, ping the damage first, then clear the stress with Maul immediately, since if they happen in the step you could resolve the abilities in either order (like Kanan and HoR Millenium Falcon).

There is also precedent going against me, too, in Quickdraw. Her shields are lost in Step 7, but she'd wait until Step 9 to perform her attack.

However, unlike Viktor Hel and TLTs,* I'm not willing to fight to the death over this one. If community consensus is that Dace deals damage in step 8 and not step 7, and that Jostero only looks at "defending" through step 7 until step 8 has started, fine. It's not how I'd interpret things personally, but it's NBD. Overall, though, I think this would be a good subject for a pair of FAQ entries: [1] what steps are covered for Captain Jostero's ability? [2] when does Dace Bonearm's ability deal damage when an ion token is received as part of an attack?

This, personally, is why I love the Attack Flowchart. Once we know exactly what step something is supposed to happen, we know how it relates to all the other abilities and triggers.

* Rolling exactly two dice and exactly two dice again is in my mind still exactly two dice rolled, like how if you ate chicken for dinner twice it doesn't mean you ate turkey; I understand the 2+2=4 argument, but disagree on how "did X happen" should be treated with "perform this attack twice." I just think it's more appropriate to say "we can't add these numbers, and so while 2+2=4, it isn't relevant" than to say "two chickens are a turkey."

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

If community consensus is that Jostero can work off damage dealt in steps 8 & 9, I think that's probably fine.

I'm not sure on Dace dealing damage at 8, however. Based on discussions of Dace and Maul, folks (well, those who participated) had generally come to the conclusion that Dace's damage is dealt when ion is assigned--hence step 7--rather than after attacking (when Maul could remove stress). I think there's some precedent for such a view of Dace. Harpooned! for example triggers in the middle of an attack (late step 6) per the latest FAQ, so that it happens before damage is dealt. Likewise, I see Dace's trigger happening in Step 7, so before the target ceases to be the defender.

If both are step 8 abilities, well, that'll be really cool. Use Maul to reroll a die on your attack, clear the stress, then use Dace's ability to ping an extra damage. Or, if you've rolled really good, ping the damage first, then clear the stress with Maul immediately, since if they happen in the step you could resolve the abilities in either order (like Kanan and HoR Millenium Falcon).

There is also precedent going against me, too, in Quickdraw. Her shields are lost in Step 7, but she'd wait until Step 9 to perform her attack.

However, unlike Viktor Hel and TLTs,* I'm not willing to fight to the death over this one. If community consensus is that Dace deals damage in step 8 and not step 7, and that Jostero only looks at "defending" through step 7 until step 8 has started, fine. It's not how I'd interpret things personally, but it's NBD. Overall, though, I think this would be a good subject for a pair of FAQ entries: [1] what steps are covered for Captain Jostero's ability? [2] when does Dace Bonearm's ability deal damage when an ion token is received as part of an attack?

This, personally, is why I love the Attack Flowchart. Once we know exactly what step something is supposed to happen, we know how it relates to all the other abilities and triggers.

* Rolling exactly two dice and exactly two dice again is in my mind still exactly two dice rolled, like how if you ate chicken for dinner twice it doesn't mean you ate turkey; I understand the 2+2=4 argument, but disagree on how "did X happen" should be treated with "perform this attack twice." I just think it's more appropriate to say "we can't add these numbers, and so while 2+2=4, it isn't relevant" than to say "two chickens are a turkey."

How do we raise questions like this to the attention of the FAQ folks? I can probably get behind either the step 7 or the step 8 explanation, but I think this one is tricky enough that it's a reasonable candidate for a formal question & answer.

48 minutes ago, CoffeeMinion said:

How do we raise questions like this to the attention of the FAQ folks? I can probably get behind either the step 7 or the step 8 explanation, but I think this one is tricky enough that it's a reasonable candidate for a formal question & answer.

Rules questions are asked using this form:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/

However, just be aware that the answers given from that form are not always the same as what ends up in an official FAQ (assuming the question ends up in the FAQ in the first place). It is well known that there have been answers given by email to questions posed via the form but have then been overruled by the FAQ when it made it that far.

3 hours ago, bgrelle said:

The closest thing to "after an attack resolves" I have found so far is Boba Fett crew that is "After performing an attack" so I am not sure where that came from.

Edit: Darth Vader crew is also "After you perform an attack" so again out of luck so far.

Edit 2: Found it. Harpoon missile condition is applied "after the attack resolves" and now I remember why it was added. This was so that a ship destroyed by the harpoon would not then receive the condition prior to being "destroyed" then having to splash damage to other ships at range one when removed from the table due to being "destroyed".

Thank You!

3 hours ago, bgrelle said:

The closest thing to "after an attack resolves" I have found so far is Boba Fett crew that is "After performing an attack" so I am not sure where that came from.

Edit: Darth Vader crew is also "After you perform an attack" so again out of luck so far.

Edit 2: Found it. Harpoon missile condition is applied "after the attack resolves" and now I remember why it was added. This was so that a ship destroyed by the harpoon would not then receive the condition prior to being "destroyed" then having to splash damage to other ships at range one when removed from the table due to being "destroyed".

That's why I couldn't find it last night. I was thinking in terms of a pilot or crew ability not a condition card.

3 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

If community consensus is that Jostero can work off damage dealt in steps 8 & 9, I think that's probably fine.

I'm not sure on Dace dealing damage at 8, however. Based on discussions of Dace and Maul, folks (well, those who participated) had generally come to the conclusion that Dace's damage is dealt when ion is assigned--hence step 7--rather than after attacking (when Maul could remove stress). I think there's some precedent for such a view of Dace. Harpooned! for example triggers in the middle of an attack (late step 6) per the latest FAQ, so that it happens before damage is dealt. Likewise, I see Dace's trigger happening in Step 7, so before the target ceases to be the defender.

If both are step 8 abilities, well, that'll be really cool. Use Maul to reroll a die on your attack, clear the stress, then use Dace's ability to ping an extra damage. Or, if you've rolled really good, ping the damage first, then clear the stress with Maul immediately, since if they happen in the step you could resolve the abilities in either order (like Kanan and HoR Millenium Falcon).

There is also precedent going against me, too, in Quickdraw. Her shields are lost in Step 7, but she'd wait until Step 9 to perform her attack.

However, unlike Viktor Hel and TLTs,* I'm not willing to fight to the death over this one. If community consensus is that Dace deals damage in step 8 and not step 7, and that Jostero only looks at "defending" through step 7 until step 8 has started, fine. It's not how I'd interpret things personally, but it's NBD. Overall, though, I think this would be a good subject for a pair of FAQ entries: [1] what steps are covered for Captain Jostero's ability? [2] when does Dace Bonearm's ability deal damage when an ion token is received as part of an attack?

This, personally, is why I love the Attack Flowchart. Once we know exactly what step something is supposed to happen, we know how it relates to all the other abilities and triggers.

I agree it needs an FAQ. Personally, I think the disagreement boils down to the use of when.

1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

That's why I couldn't find it last night. I was thinking in terms of a pilot or crew ability not a condition card.

LOL, yea the only reason I found it was that I was literally just going down the entire list of cards in the card browser tab on the (Yet Another) list builder site reading every single one. It really bugged me that I couldn't remember what that entry in the FAQ was talking about.

2 hours ago, bgrelle said:

LOL, yea the only reason I found it was that I was literally just going down the entire list of cards in the card browser tab on the (Yet Another) list builder site reading every single one. It really bugged me that I couldn't remember what that entry in the FAQ was talking about.

I might be too old for this game. Too much to remember and too easy to forget!

Its worth noting that "After Attacking" and "After Defending" keywords are seen at Step9, so imo anything that happens before Step9 is still during the attack.
Also, Dace would trigger when the Ion is assigned. This happens before the Red Dice are even cancelled, so clearly the target is still defending as the dice are still on the table.