Daces Ability states:

When an enemy ship at Range 1-3 receives at least 1 ion token, if you are not stressed, you may receive 1 stress token to cause that ship to suffer 1 damage.

Jostero ability states:

Once per round, after an enemy ship that is not defending against an attack suffers damage or critical damage, you may perform an attack against that ship.

Question:
So is adding Daces ability part of an attack? Lets say you get hit with Ion Torps or Ion Cannon and get one Ion, Dace adds his ability to add an extra Ion. Can Jostero use his ability?

Some people at my store think yes and others no?

Does anyone know?

Thanks,

I'd say NO, even if the source of the ion token was from Dace' s ship. His ability falls into the "After Attacking" section of the attack sequence chart that doesn't perform another attack in Step 8.

No dice are rolled and no weapons are used. The added damage is a bonus caused by an ability.

I'd say yes if Ion Bombs or Conner Net triggers it, but not for Ion Pulse Missiles, Ion Torps, Ion Cannon, or Ion Cannon Turret. For these, Dace resolves during the attack, therefore denying Jostero.

17 hours ago, Npmartian said:

I'd say yes if Ion Bombs or Conner Net triggers it, but not for Ion Pulse Missiles, Ion Torps, Ion Cannon, or Ion Cannon Turret. For these, Dace resolves during the attack, therefore denying Jostero.

We agree that Dace can trigger his ability, regardless of the source of the ion token, right? Dace is not part of the attack. He's "bonus" damage. There's no reason that Jostero won't trigger on that. It's not an attack and damage is suffered.

I agree with Stoneface: Jostero's ability is dependent that the damage is not from defending against an attack.

Dace's ability is bonus damage that is dependent on the ion token, and cannot be defended against.

I think Jostero does get to take a shot.

Jostero wouldn't trigger. If you shot a weapon which yields an ion token, that token is delivered before the attack sequence is complete so the recipient is still labeled the defender of an attack for 3 more steps. Dace can still cause bonus damage, but the one taking it is still 'defending against an attack' so no Jostero. (Makes me sad, I would have liked to do it.)

An Attack rolls dice. If the ion is dealt during the attack (like during the dealing damage stage) then the ability that triggers off that ion token is happening during the attack. The trigger words:

1 hour ago, eagletsi111 said:

When an enemy ship receives at least 1 ion token,

show that the damage is happening when the ion token is plunked down. During IC, ICT, IPM, and IT attacks give ion tokens during the damage allocation portion of the attack, after the hit is determined and after the dice are cancelled. However the attack is still going at this point. (The splash ions from Ion Torps will be going to some ships that are not defending from the attack, so triggering dace damage off those ion tokens will also trigger jostero.)

jostero triggers:

1 hour ago, eagletsi111 said:

after an enemy ship that is not defending against an attack suffers damage.

The defender of the attack is the defender from the time that the target is declared to the end of the attack itself, after damage and tokens are assigned and all the events triggering off that damage or those tokens are resolved. As long as the ship is considered to be defending from an attack, then Jostero will not trigger.

so it’s all a question of triggers and stuff triggering off of triggers until the whole shebang is resolved.

unless I got the timing chart wrong again.

Also I just looked at Dace with 4-LOM and Ion Discharger. Nice combo.

4 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

An Attack rolls dice. If the ion is dealt during the attack (like during the dealing damage stage) then the ability that triggers off that ion token is happening during the attack. The trigger words:

show that the damage is happening when the ion token is plunked down. During IC, ICT, IPM, and IT attacks give ion tokens during the damage allocation portion of the attack, after the hit is determined and after the dice are cancelled. However the attack is still going at this point. (The splash ions from Ion Torps will be going to some ships that are not defending from the attack, so triggering dace damage off those ion tokens will also trigger jostero.)

jostero triggers:

The defender of the attack is the defender from the time that the target is declared to the end of the attack itself, after damage and tokens are assigned and all the events triggering off that damage or those tokens are resolved. As long as the ship is considered to be defending from an attack, then Jostero will not trigger.

so it’s all a question of triggers and stuff triggering off of triggers until the whole shebang is resolved.

unless I got the timing chart wrong again.

So any time Dace triggers his ability off of anyones attack, Jostero cannot work. But bombs are not attacks, so Ion bombs or Conner nets or would trigger Jostero if the enemy took damage. Is that correct?

1 minute ago, eagletsi111 said:

So any time Dace triggers his ability off of Someone elses attack, Jostero cannot work. But bombs are not attacks, so Ion bombs or Conner nets or would trigger jostero if the enemy took damage. Is that correct?

Yup. Also anytime someone self ionizes outside of defending from an attack.

It would appear that the Dace/Jostero combo fits nicely into the attack chart at steps 8 and 9 respectively. Dace at Step 8 and Jostero at Step 9.

The bonus damage from Dace is delivered after the attack, from whatever source. The only way this bonus damage wouldn't happen is if the defender has initiative and a way to shed the ion token. If Dace triggers, then we're at step 9 and Jostero triggers. Or should.

I think the confusion comes about because FFG has incorporated steps 8 and 9 in the Attack Chart. They had to do this in order to provide an answer to when abilities that trigger after defending and after attacking happen and in what order. Before the chart there was a good bit of discussion over who goes first and when.

43 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Before the chart there was a good bit of discussion over who goes first and when.

After the chart there’s still discussion! Doh!

5 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

Also I just looked at Dace with 4-LOM and Ion Discharger. Nice combo.

Oh, that is incredibly janky. That makes garden-variety jank look downright sensible.

What's the rest of the build? Inquiring jank-hounds wanna know!

Of course it would trigger Jostero, the timing chart had nothing to do with it. The source of the damage is from Dace's ability, not an attack.

Exactly like Jostero triggering off of harpooned. The source of the damage is from the condition, not the crit that triggered it.

2 hours ago, Sekac said:

Of course it would trigger Jostero, the timing chart had nothing to do with it. The source of the damage is from Dace's ability, not an attack.

Exactly like Jostero triggering off of harpooned. The source of the damage is from the condition, not the crit that triggered it.

This is how I read it too...

1 hour ago, hawk32 said:

This is how I read it too...

Folks above are way over-thinking it.

3 hours ago, Sekac said:

Of course it would trigger Jostero, the timing chart had nothing to do with it. The source of the damage is from Dace's ability, not an attack.

Exactly like Jostero triggering off of harpooned. The source of the damage is from the condition, not the crit that triggered it.

It's not so much the source of the damage that matters, but rather if the damage occurs while the target is still defending against an attack (which prevents Jostero's ability from triggering).

I think you're getting confused on how harpooned can trigger Jostero's ability. The face-down damage from a harpoon condition also doesn't trigger Jostero (because the ship is still defending at the time preventing his ability from triggering). The splash damage from the Harpoon, which hits another ship does trigger Jostero (because that ship is not currently defending against an attack).

20 minutes ago, CRCL said:

It's not so much the source of the damage that matters, but rather if the damage occurs while the target is still defending against an attack (which prevents Jostero's ability from triggering).

I think you're getting confused on how harpooned can trigger Jostero's ability. The face-down damage from a harpoon condition also doesn't trigger Jostero (because the ship is still defending at the time preventing his ability from triggering). The splash damage from the Harpoon, which hits another ship does trigger Jostero (because that ship is not currently defending against an attack).

Oh ****, you're totally right. I was thinking Jostero's ability was somebody taking damage not from an attack. But it's somebody not defending.

I was confused.

30 minutes ago, CRCL said:

It's not so much the source of the damage that matters, but rather if the damage occurs while the target is still defending against an attack (which prevents Jostero's ability from triggering).

I think you're getting confused on how harpooned can trigger Jostero's ability. The face-down damage from a harpoon condition also doesn't trigger Jostero (because the ship is still defending at the time preventing his ability from triggering). The splash damage from the Harpoon, which hits another ship does trigger Jostero (because that ship is not currently defending against an attack).

7 minutes ago, Sekac said:

Oh ****, you're totally right. I was thinking Jostero's ability was somebody taking damage not from an attack. But it's somebody not defending.

I was confused.

Yep, did the same thing.

16 hours ago, Sekac said:

Oh ****, you're totally right. I was thinking Jostero's ability was somebody taking damage not from an attack. But it's somebody not defending.

I was confused.

When does the defender stop being the defender? Not being a smart ***.

My take on this is the defender is no longer the defender after Dace does damage and the terms "Attacker" and "Defender" used in Steps 8 & 9 are used to identity whose who for abilities. Also, since the terms "after defending" and "after attacking" are used in both Steps 8 & 9, it implies the original attack/defense sequence is complete and the "target" is no longer defending against an attack.

Another question is when would Jostero trigger, say for splash damage from Assault Missiles? Would it be between Steps 7 & 8 or in Step 9?

Like I said at the start of this, I'm not trying to be a smart ***. I spent many years reading and writing specs for industrial applications and the phrasing used by FFG on some of these cards drives me bonkers!

That's why the timing chart discussion came up. Dace's ability is "when" which means essentially simultaneous with the ion effect being applied, which is still while the defender is defending.

1 hour ago, Stoneface said:

When does the defender stop being the defender? Not being a smart ***.

My take on this is the defender is no longer the defender after Dace does damage and the terms "Attacker" and "Defender" used in Steps 8 & 9 are used to identity whose who for abilities. Also, since the terms "after defending" and "after attacking" are used in both Steps 8 & 9, it implies the original attack/defense sequence is complete and the "target" is no longer defending against an attack.

Another question is when would Jostero trigger, say for splash damage from Assault Missiles? Would it be between Steps 7 & 8 or in Step 9?

Like I said at the start of this, I'm not trying to be a smart ***. I spent many years reading and writing specs for industrial applications and the phrasing used by FFG on some of these cards drives me bonkers!

Unfortunately, you'd be mistaken.

My answer to "when is the defender no longer the defender" is "I don't know exactly when, but I do know it's not before Dace has completed his ability" in reference to an ion weapon.

Dace's ability is triggered when an ion token is applied.

An ion token, per the card text, is assigned "If this attack hits". This puts the assignment of the ion token right at the end of Step 6.iv.

Dace does Dace things.

Then, going back to the ion weapon text, "Then cancel all dice results." (EDIT: Except Ion Torpedoes, which do not cancel results)

The defender is still defending when the ion token is applied, because until instructed to cancel the dice results by completing the instructions on the attack card, there's still the Deal Damage in Step 7 waiting to happen. In Step 7.iii-iv, the defender is still explicitly referred to as the defender. So I would say they're at least still defending until Step 7 is over!

This^^^

Luckily in any tournament that this will matter, no one will be flying Dace.

3 hours ago, Sparklelord said:

Unfortunately, you'd be mistaken.

My answer to "when is the defender no longer the defender" is "I don't know exactly when, but I do know it's not before Dace has completed his ability" in reference to an ion weapon.

Dace's ability is triggered when an ion token is applied.

An ion token, per the card text, is assigned "If this attack hits". This puts the assignment of the ion token right at the end of Step 6.iv.

Dace does Dace things.

Then, going back to the ion weapon text, "Then cancel all dice results." (EDIT: Except Ion Torpedoes, which do not cancel results)

The defender is still defending when the ion token is applied, because until instructed to cancel the dice results by completing the instructions on the attack card, there's still the Deal Damage in Step 7 waiting to happen. In Step 7.iii-iv, the defender is still explicitly referred to as the defender. So I would say they're at least still defending until Step 7 is over!

I'll accept that the defender is still the defender up to and including Step 7. From this point on he's no longer defending against an attack. Which brings up the question of the timing for Jostero and Dace. Is Dace considered part of the Ion attack? I'd say no. Also I think the Ion token is assigned in Step 7 because it's after the question that's asked in the small box between Steps 6 & 7. This is where Dace could trigger but I think it's in Step 8 because it's an ability that triggers after defending or after attacking.

Now to Jostero. I say he triggers in Step 9 because his ability fits the description of that step. If the defender is no longer defending against an attack by the end of Step 7 then Jostero should trigger then, off of the damage caused by Dace.

The problem is the four letter word, when. So when is when. We know that immediately doesn't mean immediately from the FAQ but when isn't defined. Do pilot abilities interrupt the attack sequence? I wouldn't think so because of Steps 8 & 9 are included in the Attack Timing Chart. When isn't new to the game but in the numerous uses its always been used during a specific timing as in, "When attacking", "When defending" or "When another ship is..."

Until FFG gives us some direction on when is when I think it's up to the TO's to decide. For me, I'll rule that damage from Dace' s ability can trigger Jostero.