Joined the Dark Sphere regional yesterday in London, UK. A lot of new wave 7 stuff on the table which is great to see. But a clear meta defining archetype is emerging based on the top lists:

ISD Avenger BT, either Kuat or ISD1 - to one shot an opponent’s large ship

ISD, either Cymoon or ISD2 - tooled out for long range death dealing

Plus a handful of Gozantis and squads.

It works well in the tournament setting as it usually wins big - they often kill most of the opponent’s fleet and the ISDs are difficult to take down. Usually Motti or Vader as admiral. @Baltanok may be able to confirm my hypothesis, but it seems the winning tournament scores have crept up from avg. 24 to 27/28 to reflect this.

So, question for you all - what is the best counter to bring, that is balanced against other fleets, that will allow you to beat the above fleet and can get enough kills/points for a 10,8,8 score to win overall?

Couple of options to get started:

1) Run the same, and win the joust through Pryce / massive bid.

2) Rebel bomber swarm, e.g. Riekaan aceholes.

3) A token farming list e.g. Ackbar death pickle and friends.

I think a well flown Ackbar list could be the best counter here. What do you reckon?

Ackbar, Intel Officer, XI7 - go old skool

Flotilla blockers (vs the close-range strikes)

2nd player Pryce/Bail.

Yeah, its definitely the go-to right now. In a sense, its a good thing that seeing a lot of ISDs as center pieces, or 2 ISDs.

But there's a lot that seems to have quite the trouble dealing with them. Like medium ships, and small ships with nowhere good to run.

Intel Officers definitely hurt.

Mass bombers + relay to be able to keep the carriers out of range of the ISD’s

I prefer the subtle approach myself:

Obligatory @Tvayumat tag.

==============================

In seriousness, it's not a trivial answer. I see a lot of ISDs running very light on squadrons, so I think a good old Crackelator has some potential (Cracken TRC90s and a giant pile of YT2400s). I'm not good at flying that list, but someone who was should be able to do well with it. Rogues were specifically designed to counter squadronless and squadron-light fleets, and they do it very, very well.

I think the Radish also gives some good options. I've had some success with the full Profundity/Garel's/RLB nesting doll against them, though I wouldn't call it a "hard counter."

Bail. Bail Bail Bail. "Gee, that's a really nice 40-point bid for first you've got there. Why don't you go ahead and tell me which turn you're going last on, then I'll tell you which turn I'm going first on."

The Fishman Cometh. In the face of an ISD meta, the good ol' Wave 2 Ackbar toilet bowl's stock goes waaaay up. Granted the Cymoon is much better at red range than the ISD2 has ever been, but the fishman has picked up some fun toys too.

And both sides' primary squadron builds--Aceholes and Sloane aces--are super effective against ISDs. I'm not sure what exactlythe skill balance looks like there yet because I haven't seen a lot of this matchup yet in W7, but both should still be quite potent against many ISD-centric builds, and Large ships in general.

My ranking

TRC90s

Bomber fleet

Dual MC75 with raddus

HH spam

2 hours ago, Mundo said:

Joined the Dark Sphere regional yesterday in London, UK. A lot of new wave 7 stuff on the table which is great to see. But a clear meta defining archetype is emerging based on the top lists:

ISD Avenger BT, either Kuat or ISD1 - to one shot an opponent’s large ship

Aspiration can tank two rounds of BTAvenger front arc fire and live to tell the tale, if teched correctly.

However, I think that the problem, in that situation, is the second ISD giving fire support. It can't tank four ISD front arcs in the time it takes to double arc BTAvenger to death.

The only game I had against the two ISD (Cymoon/Kuat + Motti) archetype was over before round 4 started. My opponent ran his duo close to each other, with tight overlapping front arcs, which meant that I Raddused in Aspiration into a flank. After the initial exchange of fire we passed by each other and there was no more chance of damage happening to anything so we called it.

If I had been able to block the BTAvenger for one turn, I could have kept it in my double arc and would have had a chance of destroying it on the second round of fire.

I think the best way to block it might be fully defensive teched Landmonition, plus a couple of flotillas.

Alternatively, you jam up the second ISD for long enough to kill the first with Landmonition. This is a useful ship anyway, so you're not just locked into this counter play.

Basically, I think it can be done with a big enough hammer and a durable enough blocker and some smart play.

Edit: reading @DrakonLord 's post above, maybe a second large base MC might do the trick. That has its own issue with activation order, though.

As was already said, Bail throws a huge wrinkle into BT/Avenger, especially if it's using Pryce. I've come to think of him as a defensive upgrade akin to Lando rather than an offensive one. They can't shoot you if you're not there to be shot.

A Raddus fleet would seem to be a solid counter to dual ISD's as they are weak once you escape their front arc. An MC80 Battle Cruiser or an MC75 with a TRC CR90 in it looks tasty with a CR90 with Engine Techs to get where it needs to be quickly.

Slugfest wise, a well set up MC80 Assault Cruiser can get the job done.

For those in the Empire who are not senior enough officers to be given command of dual ISD's the humble Raider offers some solace with Vader on board. You can't BT if they are dead.

Dual ISD's are hot right now as they are easy to fly, but they also have huge issues. If you can use objectives, squadrons and faster ships to avoid the front arcs they can be taken down.

I like small ships trying to take out ISDs but it's tricky in the current wave. Cymoons (with IF! or Vader) can pretty reliably pop smalls at long range. And while I love raiders, they really can't be activating second against an ISD if they intend to get their power shot off. You can be in a lot of trouble if they bring a massive bid for 1st player.

I have had success against 2-big-ship fleets (tho havent tried against ISDs) with this list (theres an intensify fire that's in there that isn't displaying correctly):

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=167212&key=b95ab8d562532a8dd318bf6a41a90eb1

Sato an Intensify Fire pair REALLY well together, especially with the assault Pelta. The squadrons add a lot of punch against low/no squad lists, and WAB is great for knocking out pesky aces. And everything in this list is so cheap, it's very easy to trade up.

The yellow and blue objectives are there to help control deployment, and the red objective is there as a deterrent to dreadnoughtfleets and to abuse the **** out of WAB.

I've successfully taken out death pickles, sailfish, and liberties with this. Usually with pretty good MOV. I would expect to do about as well against ISDs

37 minutes ago, scipio83 said:

I have had success against 2-big-ship fleets (tho havent tried against ISDs) with this list (theres an intensify fire that's in there that isn't displaying correctly):

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=167212&key=b95ab8d562532a8dd318bf6a41a90eb1

Sato an Intensify Fire pair REALLY well together, especially with the assault Pelta. The squadrons add a lot of punch against low/no squad lists, and WAB is great for knocking out pesky aces. And everything in this list is so cheap, it's very easy to trade up.

The yellow and blue objectives are there to help control deployment, and the red objective is there as a deterrent to dreadnoughtfleets and to abuse the **** out of WAB.

I've successfully taken out death pickles, sailfish, and liberties with this. Usually with pretty good MOV. I would expect to do about as well against ISDs

What does this refer to? An upside down MC-75? Is this a thing now?

It's great to see dual ISDs doing well. They've always been around, but Wave 7 has some great tech to make them more viable.

That said, I've been dropping ISDs since Wave 2 with Intel TRC 30s. Been flying a lot of other fun stuff lately, but if ISDs are your problem, they're a great solution.

1 minute ago, Matt Antilles said:

It's great to see dual ISDs doing well. They've always been around, but Wave 7 has some great tech to make them more viable.

That said, I've been dropping ISDs since Wave 2 with Intel TRC 30s. Been flying a lot of other fun stuff lately, but if ISDs are your problem, they're a great solution.

I faced twin Intel trc mc30s at regionals and they wrecked me, I still have nightmares.

4 minutes ago, Viktor Tanek said:

I faced twin Intel trc mc30s at regionals and they wrecked me, I still have nightmares.

Back in wave 2 I loved playing a dual ISD, single raider, single Darth Vader squad fleet. My buddy ran 4 intel trc 30’s under ackbar- they were brutally effective at just pumping out relentless firepower while kiting at long range and being oppressive on the brace token with IO.

8 hours ago, Mundo said:

It works well in the tournament setting as it usually wins big - they often kill most of the opponent’s fleet and the ISDs are difficult to take down. Usually Motti or Vader as admiral. @Baltanok may be able to confirm my hypothesis, but it seems the winning tournament scores have crept up from avg. 24 to 27/28 to reflect this.

Wave 4,5,6,7 average winning tournament points: 26.8, 25.6, 28.8, 27.2

so, not really confirmed, not really rejected. Wave 5 was below trend, wave 6 above trend, but 4 & 7 are pretty similar.

regarding performance of single/double ISD lists with 4 or more activations: ISD+X lists & 2 ISD+X have definitely gotten more popular, and they are effective, but not overly so.

ISD+X representation by wave

Representation is for comparison to the full set of lists.

Now 2ISD + X:

ISD+X were often (but not always!) high-squad, but 2ISD + X lists tended to be low-squad. (unsurprisingly, as 2 ISDs, 2 gozantis or raiders, and decent upgrades don't leave a lot of room for squads)

Data gathered by filtering, so if you want to replicate it or look at other questions, I can certainly walk you through the process. (Maybe that's a good idea for an article...)

10 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

In seriousness, it's not a trivial answer. I see a lot of ISDs running very light on squadrons, so I think a good old Crackelator has some potential (Cracken TRC90s and a giant pile of YT2400s). I'm not good at flying that list, but someone who was should be able to do well with it. Rogues were specifically designed to counter squadronless and squadron-light fleets, and they do it very, very wellI

10 hours ago, DrakonLord said:

My ranking

TRC90s

Completely agreed on Cracken TRC90s and rogues to beat ISDs, at least pre wave VII. It’s been my go-to for ages. Very possible to go all game giving up only one or two meaningful shots while pouring consistent damage on (also a great counter to BT Avenger as you’re dying with or without that redirect if it closes on you).

The presence of EWS kinda makes me worry about its viability these days. Ships with 1-2 dice really don’t like being obstructed.

1 hour ago, hulldown said:

The presence of EWS kinda makes me worry about its viability these days. Ships with 1-2 dice really don’t like being obstructed.

Luckily with the popularity of large ships people are reluctant to give up their ecms. The place I see EWS Most is an assault pickle that already has ECM in the first slot or an MC30 with redundant tokens

Just now, MandalorianMoose said:

Luckily with the popularity of large ships people are reluctant to give up their ecms. The place I see EWS Most is an assault pickle that already has ECM in the first slot or an MC30 with redundant tokens

Personally I still feel it's a wrong call, especially in a next large tournament meta. One usually doesn't outECM an ISD but outnavigates it instead. Bombers however...

1 minute ago, PT106 said:

Personally I still feel it's a wrong call, especially in a next large tournament meta. One usually doesn't outECM an ISD but outnavigates it instead. Bombers however...

True most of the time, but if you have an ISD without ecm and go up against an isd/ackbar pickle with it, you could be in for a rough time in that joust. You can only outmaneuver for so long with a large base speed 2/3 ship

Just now, MandalorianMoose said:

True most of the time, but if you have an ISD without ecm and go up against an isd/ackbar pickle with it, you could be in for a rough time in that joust. You can only outmaneuver for so long with a large base speed 2/3 ship

I do that all the time... But I do have a plan B for that.

24 minutes ago, PT106 said:

I do that all the time... But I do have a plan B for that.

Ya, projection experts and 7th fleet is an even more flexible workaround, as it works vs all types of damage, not just single large volleys

32 minutes ago, MandalorianMoose said:

Ya, projection experts and 7th fleet is an even more flexible workaround, as it works vs all types of damage, not just single large volleys

Even with 2 ISD fleet I would trade a cheap ISD for a double arc shot and a block while big bad wolf flanks and still shoot from the front.