So without sounding too salty I have a general question about something that happened today.

I’ve been playing xwing and IA for a couple years now, played 3 or 4 xwing regionals and today was my 3rd IA regional.

In all of these different tournaments I’ve never seen someone intentionally concede a match to their friend in order to help their record.

The player was 2-0, and forfeited, dropping his strength of schedule for both of the two that he beat (questionably).

In round 5, I played this person. I beat them and made it to 3-2.

My losses were to someone who went 5-1 and another person who went 4-1, both were quality losses.

I got 9th and missed the cut by .04.

The person kept repeating it’s in the rules. I’m not technically challenging whether or not it’s in the rules, but is his something that is common?

its not like it was round 5, between two players who were both undefeated.

This was round 3 of 5.

Thanks for any input, just curious about this type of behavior.

I wouldn’t want that to happen to me. Sorry that happened to you. I guess it’s a bit of the negative side of the gamesmanship that comes along with organized “competitive play.” I can’t say I’ve never used a bye, but in general I don’t like them. I think everyone should have to play the same amount of games. Seems like the spirit of the option to concede is to have something established in case a player absolutely has to leave mid-game or if it’s completely out of reach and someone has just has enough.

Refer to the tournament document under the heading "Unsporting Conduct".

Quote

Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden.

The organizer, at his or her sole discretion, may remove players from the tournament for unsporting conduct.

So if you want a ruling, based solely on your anecdotal evidence, I would say that by forfeiting the match specifically to boost his friend's tournament score, that the players were colluding to manipulate scoring.

The difference here versus the classic Intentional Draw Fiasco of 2016 is that the top players all drawing could be technically seen as colluding but at the same time you can make a reasonable argument that that, for example, you and I shook on a draw so we could get a longer rest between now and when the cut happens, since we know we're in either way. So we're still manipulating the scoring by way of colluding to draw, but our motive is really to get dinner.

Forfeiting the match solely to help your friend get into the cut is colluding to manipulate scoring.

Forfeiting your final Swiss match before the cut when you're X-0 so you can get a burger and chill out, regardless of who you square with, is you bugging out to eat.

So obviously it's superficially difficult to prove anything if you have your story straight, but if they had this conversation out loud and everyone heard it, maybe the TO could have called it a double loss or booted them both. People are reluctant to use TO final word to crack down on shady behaviour. And why not?! FFG was too soft to boot a guy at X-Wing Worlds they caught altering his dial on stream no less, so I guess that's the example we're all supposed to follow?

Your final bit about the forfeiter defending themselves saying it's in the rules sounds like they were doubling down on their shady motive, so that might have made it more clear-cut for your TO to do something.

In the end it's up to the TO to make the call though. Did you bring it to their attention?

If you didn't, then it's on you.

If you did, then I hope your next tournament has a less spineless TO and/or an absence of lame players.

9 minutes ago, cleardave said:

In the end it's up to the TO to make the call though. Did you bring it to their attention?

If you didn't, then it's on you.

If you did, then I hope your next tournament has a less spineless TO and/or an absence of lame players.

At the time it happened in round 2 I didn’t know. When t was brought up they said it was explained to the TO and they said according to the rules it was allowed.

@ImperialOfficer

OK, so we don't know what the actual conversation was like, and you'll just have to keep that moment in the back of your mind the next time you see something weird going on at your events.

I've enjoyed IA a lot mostly because, coming off of X-Wing, I'd seen a ton of shady things going on with the board state, and I appreciate IA being on a grid that has absolutes we can all agree on. You either have enough movement to cover the distance or you don't. Line of sight is in or out, you don't have something "on the line". Nobody can "accidentally" nudge a ship or obstacle to move it that millimetre to make room for their ship to not hit it.

Generally it's been a good spread of players behaving professionally, at least where I tend to play. There will always be "that person" that is the outlier that can appear randomly, who ruins an otherwise great day of gaming. Talk to your fellow meta mates about it. Don't name names, just discuss the general situation and get a sense of how they would weigh in on that if it was a legit score manipulation thing. You may find you have a lot of quiet support for getting rid of shady players, and if the time ever comes that you need to speak up, they'll be more likely to get your back when they know they also aren't alone.

That sucks man! Intentionally throwing a game without playing even sure looks like straight up collusion.

@seef1033 and I were in a similar situation our last regionals. He was like third going into fourth round and I was eighth (this was final game before the cut). I joked that he didn’t need this game and I did and I didn’t like the odds I had against his team matchup. He’s like, so you’re asking me to throw? And I was like, I wish. But obviously we knew you can’t just throw a game that has implications and they almost all do. (I was present at another regional with the intentional bye before that mess was fixed, that wasn’t a fun time!)

We played our game and I got close but still ended up losing to him. Somehow still had enough sos to not go down a notch though and got eighth into the cut. Probably because we had a field of only 13 players but still. Tough game matchups happen against friends all the time and you gotta do what’s right and play them out.

Played @Matsu Robun in fourth round regional before that and he’s my best IA buddy, and basically whoever won that game was getting in. And he got ninth because of the loss (he made up for it by winning the next regional!).

@Masterchiefspiff

Last year at Worlds I had to square off against a meta mate on the last round of Swiss for Day 1. Whoever won that was going on to Day 2. It wasn't pleasant but we played it out. It's the price you pay for going into a competition with your friends. Personally I enjoy it in a roundabout way because it's a story to tell later and hopefully you can make friendly rivalries out of it.

This happened in the 3rd of 5 rounds of Swiss, at a moment when none of them were certain to make the cut?

2 hours ago, Cremate said:

This happened in the 3rd of 5 rounds of Swiss, at a moment when none of them were certain to make the cut?

This is the part that seems bizarre to me.

-ryanjamal

31 minutes ago, ryanjamal said:

This is the part that seems bizarre to me.

-ryanjamal

He said he already had a ticket to worlds and by throwing it to his friend increased his chance of winning a regional and getting a ticket to worlds.

Beware worlds players, this guy will be there. No respect for the game or competition at all.

Yeah beware. My name is Gabriel Alonso. I’ve only been playing competitive games for 20+ years. This guy is just mad because he didn’t make the top cut and he and his teammates berated me and insulted me the rest of the day.

Heres the truth and your all entitled to your opinion if what we did was right or wrong.

I won an invite through the lottery for IA. My play test partner and I decided to go to the Regional. He was trying to win an invite so he could go with me to Worlds. I went to practice and try to win some fancy dice. In round 3 out of 5, we are both undefeated. We went to the head judge showed her the rules and I conceded. There was no collusion or manipulation. I tried to win my next two games and lost (last game was to the original poster). My friend 1-1 beating the OPs teammate in the last round. They both didn’t make top cut and proceeded to insult us and cry bull in front of everyone. I tried repeatedly to make peace with them and they were not interested.

I spoke with the head judge and the store owner after the event at length.

I understand why the OP is upset but it was handled poorly.

Im the guy who runs most of the events in South Florida for most FFG games for years and years. Someone calling me a cheater is very insulting. I am a former Marine and my integrity means more to me than anything.

Anyone who knows me or has encountered me will verify.

As the original post said I was asking a question. Your actions were the first I’ve seen in competitive gaming. There’s no debating whether or not your actions screwed almost everyone else at the tournament. Your attempts at peace were trying to confirm your own actions, as there was absolutely no acknowledgement that your disregard for everyone else caused a lot of gaps during the day. I did not name you I just wanted to know if this was common

Thank you for your service, I would have not identified as you as a marine by your actions.

I have a lot of military friends and family, living near multiple military bases throughout my life. I wouldn’t have expected any of them to be so disrespectful. They are normally the epitome of respect for others, dedicated to doing what’s right. I’m sorry I wasn’t able to see you as one of these men.

Have fun and good luck.

19 minutes ago, galonso said:

Yeah beware. My name is Gabriel Alonso. I’ve only been playing competitive games for 20+ years. This guy is just mad because he didn’t make the top cut and he and his teammates berated me and insulted me the rest of the day.

Heres the truth and your all entitled to your opinion if what we did was right or wrong.

I won an invite through the lottery for IA. My play test partner and I decided to go to the Regional. He was trying to win an invite so he could go with me to Worlds. I went to practice and try to win some fancy dice. In round 3 out of 5, we are both undefeated. We went to the head judge showed her the rules and I conceded. There was no collusion or manipulation. I tried to win my next two games and lost (last game was to the original poster). My friend 1-1 beating the OPs teammate in the last round. They both didn’t make top cut and proceeded to insult us and cry bull in front of everyone. I tried repeatedly to make peace with them and they were not interested.

I spoke with the head judge and the store owner after the event at length.

I understand why the OP is upset but it was handled poorly.

Im the guy who runs most of the events in South Florida for most FFG games for years and years. Someone calling me a cheater is very insulting. I am a former Marine and my integrity means more to me than anything.

Anyone who knows me or has encountered me will verify.

It was more than just conseding the match. While that did hurt multiple people strength of schedule. It was the entire day of slow playing every opponent. Imperial assault matches should last longer than two rounds. At one point you said and I quote " if I play this faster, and we go to the next round, you will win" 3 minutes to decide what to do with 3po in the first turn is not sportsmanlike. And every single activation was like that. Three of your four opponents called you for slow play. And if you and your teammate played that one round, it might not even lasted longer than 1 round. Against another player, the judge was called over after the first round lasted 35 min. Its wasnt just me saying this. Very prominent players said the same thing. Good luck at Worlds

Clay

I’ve tried multiple times to mediate this. You’re not interested. I give up. I won’t address this topic with you any further.

28 minutes ago, galonso said:

I won an invite through the lottery for IA. My play test partner and I decided to go to the Regional. He was trying to win an invite so he could go with me to Worlds. I went to practice and try to win some fancy dice. In round 3 out of 5, we are both undefeated. We went to the head judge showed her the rules and I conceded. There was no collusion or manipulation. I tried to win my next two games and lost (last game was to the original poster). My friend 1-1 beating the OPs teammate in the last round. They both didn’t make top cut and proceeded to insult us and cry bull in front of everyone. I tried repeatedly to make peace with them and they were not interested.I

You manipulated the game results in order for your opponent to get more chance at winning the event. You did not concede the game for any reason other than that, according to what you posted here. Feel free to correct me if that was not the case.

I also organise tournaments/judge, and would have DQed you for collusion. Incase you are interested in an outside view. If not, ignore everything I said.

I don’t know how you define collusion but the dictionary has it as secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.

We did not do anything in secret, we went to the head judge and she agreed. It isn’t illegal - conceding is in the tournament rules and we weren’t trying to cheat or deceive anyone. Here I am telling you what happened as we did the day of the event.

If I was at your event and asked you and you said no, we would have played. I don’t agree that it is collusion but I respect your view.

Conceding is indeed in the rules, collusion is difficult to prove and something I would be very vary of disqualifying someone for as a judge - and even less reading about it online.

20 minutes ago, IamtheBendu said:

It was more than just conseding the match. While that did hurt multiple people strength of schedule. It was the entire day of slow playing every opponent. Imperial assault matches should last longer than two rounds. At one point you said and I quote " if I play this faster, and we go to the next round, you will win" 3 minutes to decide what to do with 3po in the first turn is not sportsmanlike. And every single activation was like that. Three of your four opponents called you for slow play. And if you and your teammate played that one round, it might not even lasted longer than 1 round. Against another player, the judge was called over after the first round lasted 35 min. Its wasnt just me saying this. Very prominent players said the same thing. Good luck at Worlds

Clay

This is the OPs teammate that lost to me in round 1 and to my friend in the last.

8 minutes ago, galonso said:

I don’t know how you define collusion but the dictionary has it as secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.

We did not do anything in secret, we went to the head judge and she agreed. It isn’t illegal - conceding is in the tournament rules and we weren’t trying to cheat or deceive anyone. Here I am telling you what happened as we did the day of the event.

If I was at your event and asked you and you said no, we would have played. I don’t agree that it is collusion but I respect your view.

It's an arbitrary thing. Some would, some wouldn't. Hence why I present my opinion as such, an opinion. Take it to heart or ignore it at will.

I think we can both agree on one thing though: It provided a negative play experience for others, something which is to be avoided in general. Or would you disagree with that?

After the events yesterday, I agree. I certainly didn’t have a fun day and I understand why the OP and his teammate are upset. My point is we didn’t deliberately set out to do this. We didn’t do anything illegal or unethical as is being suggested.

This subject tended to rear its head much more often during those dark times of the Intentionally Draw and a consideration at the time - at least in some of the FFG games - were that you should not discuss anything before having called over a judge to ensure perfect transparency. I think that is a pretty good rule of thumb, still, if you want to concede and if your opponent stands to gain enough of a benefit from it to progress in the tournament.

I'm not saying this as comment or a judgement call on what should or shouldn't have been done in this situation - I don't think anyone not there can do that here (and those that were there, probably shouldn't settle that here) - but as a general take-away from the discussion.

3 minutes ago, galonso said:

This is the OPs teammate that lost to me in round 1 and to my friend in the last.

Of course im the teammate. Not hiding it or anything. I just want those going to worlds to be on the look out. Hopefully you have changed your ways by then. But as of now, your actions are a blight on the IA competitive community.

My ways will not change. I didn’t do anything wrong. I’m sorry you feel that way. Your lack of sportsmanship and repeated temper tantrums at various events could be perceived as a blight as well. Im going to step out here. I’ve said what I needed to say. This is going to go poorly from here.

That’s a shame. Round 3 is a good thing, you might want to try it sometime. (Yes this is sarcasm). Routinely taking 6-7 minutes for 3po and Gideon is nothing short of ridiculous and intentional.

Taking han and Luke, two figures with high health that can run back at the end of round 2 to try and win by total points scored less than a combined 30 points is blatantly trying to slow play.

But good luck at worlds (and yes, this is also sarcasm).

I don't think you guys can settle it here - or help it by continuing it.

Transcend it.

Have a great worlds (none of this is sarcasm).