So to me it seems like the TIE Phantom, suddenly vanished from the competitive scene... What changed that made him vanish (cloaking pun intended)?
Cloaking not competitive?
5 minutes ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:So to me it seems like the TIE Phantom, suddenly vanished from the competitive scene... What changed that made him vanish (cloaking pun intended)?
Too many PS 10 pilots running around & bombs.
1 minute ago, Innese said:Too many PS 10 pilots running around & bombs.
Yup. Whisper doesn’t like PS-turret-bomb-wing.
RAC + Whisper can destroy the vast majority of the meta right now.
Are you kidding? The Tie Phantom disappeared after the cloak/decloak nerf. While I actually like the mechanic better now, it is totally unforgiving. You decloak wrong and your 40+ pt ship can easily be gone in one shooting phase. It's a simple risk vs reward. The Tie Phantom is the ultimate glass cannon and it's not worth the risk. They should have reduced the points value of the Phantoms when they changed the cloak/decloak mechanic. If they dropped them by 5-10 points each, they might be worth the risk. Add all this to the bomb, TLTs, proliferation of PS10+, PWTs, etc, and it's a perfect storm for not seeing Phantoms. They are very fun to play, but they usually die spectacularly and that's not how you win tournaments.
3 minutes ago, JJFDVORAK said:Are you kidding? The Tie Phantom disappeared after the cloak/decloak nerf. While I actually like the mechanic better now, it is totally unforgiving. You decloak wrong and your 40+ pt ship can easily be gone in one shooting phase. It's a simple risk vs reward. The Tie Phantom is the ultimate glass cannon and it's not worth the risk. They should have reduced the points value of the Phantoms when they changed the cloak/decloak mechanic. If they dropped them by 5-10 points each, they might be worth the risk. Add all this to the bomb, TLTs, proliferation of PS10+, PWTs, etc, and it's a perfect storm for not seeing Phantoms. They are very fun to play, but they usually die spectacularly and that's not how you win tournaments.
Personally, I think they should have reduced the PS of the aces and not changed the cloaking mechanism. You have awesome repositioning, but you are going to go second. That should be the risk/reward.
1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:Personally, I think they should have reduced the PS of the aces and not changed the cloaking mechanism. You have awesome repositioning, but you are going to go second. That should be the risk/reward.
Yeah, but that would have still allowed the ridiculousness that the pre nerf decloak was. Just dial in a 1 hard turn and then be three vastly different places depending on what the generic ships with lower pilot skill than you did. It would be the exact same as it is now against high PS aces, as you would move/decloak before they moved(assuming you lowered the Phantoms PS enough so that even with VI they would still be low.) And if you lowered their PS, you would still have to lower their points cost. But even that would have been preferable to the current nerf. My point about the points (
)was that if they had lowered them, then the risk of guessing wrong and getting one shotted, might have been worth considering because the Phantom would have only be a little over a quarter of your list instead of just under a half of your list.
I don't think Whisper is actually in that bad of a place right now. A lot of high PS ships that were taking VI are moving towards Expertise, LW, or other passive mods to combat the Ghost. Additionally, bomb are on the decline, and those mess Whisper up pretty badly.
Her primary threats right now are PS 11 Poe and PS 10 Nym. The former is on the decline due to the prevalence of the Ghost/Fenn, while the latter is still an issue.
But Whisper with Agent Kallus is great right now against Ghost/Fenn as Fenn's usually unmodified 2 attack dice aren't particularly threatening while her cloak is down, and with Focus+Evade+Kallus+4 agility can tank TLTs long enough to burn the Ghost down, while Kallus mostly ignores sensor jammer.
Whisper with rebel captive is especially difficult for any Expertise based pilots.
She's still the high-risk, high-reward glass cannon she's been ever since the cloak nerf, but I think her stock is better now than where it was during the bomb meta.
1 minute ago, JJFDVORAK said:Yeah, but that would have still allowed the ridiculousness that the pre nerf decloak was. Just dial in a 1 hard turn and then be three vastly different places depending on what the generic ships with lower pilot skill than you did. It would be the exact same as it is now against high PS aces, as you would move/decloak before they moved(assuming you lowered the Phantoms PS enough so that even with VI they would still be low.) And if you lowered their PS, you would still have to lower their points cost. But even that would have been preferable to the current nerf. My point about the points (
As a designer, I would not be afraid of the ban hammer. Ban Echo and Whisper and create 2 new lower PS aces (and yes, low enough that VI is still low) and release with a repaint.
So, I don't understand why you say high PS aces can't out-position them. They would go second. . .and the point would be that the TIE/ph is a slippery eel--but is one-shotted the first mistake it makes.
5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:As a designer, I would not be afraid of the ban hammer. Ban Echo and Whisper and create 2 new lower PS aces (and yes, low enough that VI is still low) and release with a repaint.
So, I don't understand why you say high PS aces can't out-position them. They would go second. . .and the point would be that the TIE/ph is a slippery eel--but is one-shotted the first mistake it makes.
I disagree with banning ships on principle. People paid for those cards; they should be able to use them in some manner.
And I didn't say high PS aces couldn't out position them. I said it would work the same way as the current nerf works, in effect. Currently, phantoms decloak, everyone lower ps than them moves, they move, then anyone higher PS moves. This system allows high PS aces to out position low PS Phantoms, but not high PS Phantoms. In your system, phantoms would all be low PS, but decloak the old way. So they would move and decloak on their(lower) ps and high PS aces could out position them if they could guess right and the phantom wasn't totally out of their firing arc. Either way, I think phantoms need a point cost reduction to be viable in a risk/reward system.
1 hour ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:So to me it seems like the TIE Phantom, suddenly vanished from the competitive scene... What changed that made him vanish (cloaking pun intended)?
it's not cloaking, it's the fact that the Phantom's defense is tied to the +2 agility and Advanced Cloaking Device, which is ps depenedent in an era of ps 10+
it's bad design from its inception. If we ever get a chance going forward, we should cut the +2 agility and make Cloak a pure re-positioning mechanic and buff the phantom accordingly
9 minutes ago, JJFDVORAK said:I disagree with banning ships on principle. People paid for those cards; they should be able to use them in some manner.
Yeah, cuz people are getting a **** ton of use out of their legal ship right now. . . *
People paid for a model and 4 pilots. Ban 2 cards (not the ship), release a repaint with 4 new aces. People get to play the 2 Phantoms they bought, and the cards do what they say.
It's a win-win in my book.
*Not anger directed at you
If the high PS meta ever calms down enough that she can fly around without getting shredded by PS10+ bombs and TLTs, whisper will be in an all-right place.
Until then, she's a 40-odd-point z95 in a lot of matches, so taking her is a MASSIVE risk.
I'd like to see a title that says "Before you become the active ship during the combat phase, you may receive one stress token and discard a cloak token. Shuts down ACD (unless Yorr) but could be fun.
13 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:I'd like to see a title that says "Before you become the active ship during the combat phase, you may receive one stress token and discard a cloak token. Shuts down ACD (unless Yorr) but could be fun.
Or you could make it say something like "When you become the active ship during the combat phase, you may discard a cloak token. If you do, you roll one fewer dice the next time you shoot." Would allow your idea of the higher defense against higher PS, allow you to shoot (albeit not as many shots) and still allow ACD to trigger. Could be a great title.
Phantoms are still good, it's just they have a very high skill floor to employ well. We have some die hard Phantom pilots in our area who still do very well with them.
If VI were capped out at PS 9, though, I think you'd see more come back. The cloak mechanic needs to stay as is -- perfect information repositioning is a game breaker (as we saw with Genius/TS Nym, and are stating to see with PS 11 Coordinate Fenn ...). Rolling the Phantom back to the pre-nerf mechanic is a bad idea.
I've heard a lot about a nerf or change to the cloak mechanic... Can someone explain what is was? Preferably in detail and with a link to an Eratta? I cant find it anywhere... Thanks in advance
Decloaking originally took place at your init, not at the start of activation.
1 hour ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:I've heard a lot about a nerf or change to the cloak mechanic... Can someone explain what is was? Preferably in detail and with a link to an Eratta? I cant find it anywhere... Thanks in advance
Pre Decloak nerf, you would decide whether to decloak and which way to decloak when you revealed your dial. So if you put VI on Whisperer, you could see where all(most) of your enemies ships would be then choose a decloak option that, along with your chosen maneuver, would keep you out of firing arcs(or at least in as few as possible) Post Decloak nerf, you have to chose whether to decloak and which way to decloak at the start of the activation phase, so if you happen to guess wrong, and you end up decloaked in a kill box, your 40+ pt ship is screwed.(potentially) That, along with the prevalence of bombs and other auto-damage abilities, is why Phantoms are rarely seen anymore. To much risk. See above for more on the risk/reward situation.
Also, new Phantoms have to new cards with the new decloak mechanic in the expansion. So unless you happen to buy a set that has been on the shelf for two years, you'll have the new rules.
3 hours ago, JJFDVORAK said:Are you kidding? The Tie Phantom disappeared after the cloak/decloak nerf. While I actually like the mechanic better now, it is totally unforgiving. You decloak wrong and your 40+ pt ship can easily be gone in one shooting phase. It's a simple risk vs reward. The Tie Phantom is the ultimate glass cannon and it's not worth the risk. They should have reduced the points value of the Phantoms when they changed the cloak/decloak mechanic. If they dropped them by 5-10 points each, they might be worth the risk. Add all this to the bomb, TLTs, proliferation of PS10+, PWTs, etc, and it's a perfect storm for not seeing Phantoms. They are very fun to play, but they usually die spectacularly and that's not how you win tournaments.
5 phantoms in a list would be crazy. theyre priced fine, its the power creep thats too cheap
3 hours ago, JJFDVORAK said:Are you kidding? The Tie Phantom disappeared after the cloak/decloak nerf. While I actually like the mechanic better now, it is totally unforgiving. You decloak wrong and your 40+ pt ship can easily be gone in one shooting phase. It's a simple risk vs reward. The Tie Phantom is the ultimate glass cannon and it's not worth the risk. They should have reduced the points value of the Phantoms when they changed the cloak/decloak mechanic. If they dropped them by 5-10 points each, they might be worth the risk. Add all this to the bomb, TLTs, proliferation of PS10+, PWTs, etc, and it's a perfect storm for not seeing Phantoms. They are very fun to play, but they usually die spectacularly and that's not how you win tournaments.
Whisper woulda been perfectly fine actually, and I was contemplating her every wave, there was a time she was pretty ok. But the new BS that's been put out is like.... miles and miles of cheese beyond even pre-nerf whisper and Fat Han and Dash.
4 hours ago, Wookiee_Slayer said:So to me it seems like the TIE Phantom, suddenly vanished from the competitive scene... What changed that made him vanish (cloaking pun intended)?
I wouldn't call it sudden. It has been gone since Wave 6.
The problem is the decloaking actions while having some utility is not as good as it once was. Also original cloak was designed for ships to keep cloaking and decloaking so staying cloaked is often a bad idea.
I had an idea to well to add a free cloaking move if cloaked at the start of the combat phase. That way since a ship starting the combat phase with a cloak token can't attack it isn't a free reposistion for an attacking ship like the boost barrel roll combo, but it does make it harder to pin down ships with a cloaking token.