4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Thanks, drunk me deserved that

Ha! I wasn't trying to be rude or anything, just pointing out that you weren't really "that guy", just not understanding it.

1 minute ago, GreenLantern1138 said:

I understand now. Thanks to everyone who explained. I'm in favour of both the changes proposed by OP.

Whew! I don't think I had a fourth explanation post in me!

35 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

That wouldn't change much for the Ghost/Fenn combo. At best, you force Fenn to drop the HotShot Copilot. Maybe also switch the Sensor Jammer for Reinforced Deflectors.

Which is sounds about right in terms of what would bring it down to a respectable but not dominant list. The ability for Fenn to not only ensure no offensive focus on 2 ships but also the automatic 2 damage that saves the Ghost is a huge chunk of what lets the list work

57 minutes ago, Herowannabe said:

And to the community: am I wrong? Is there anyone who wouldn’t be on board with either of those errata? Genuinely curious.

I try agaib: equiping two turrets is great, and only getting the second turret attack with the shuttle TLT is also great.

I also like the idea that the rear arc uses the primary of the docked shuttle, so 2 or 3 dice. But that‘s a bit complicated to write into a clear, concise rule.

I would add defensive range bonuses against at least turrets, if not all secondary weapons.

3 hours ago, DarkArk said:

No, I'm not on board with any of these changes. I don't think the meta has fully settled yet, and I'd hope that people start working around what they have in an attempt to counter the meta rather than demand whack a mole nerfs every couple of months. And I mean what I preach, I took my own Imperial list to the Seattle regional and ended up 1st in Swiss, beating both the things you are calling for nerfs on.

(Technically I never actually called either change a nerf- I’d consider them tweaks to make it so that certain cards *coughTLTcough* can’t be exploited in ways that weren’t originally intended. I know I know, it’s just semantics, but still. )

Anyway, every time there has been a problem ship or combo or list people have tried to argue “it’s not unbeatable” as a reason not to make any changes. There has never been a list that has been unbeatable, so the “I can beat it” argument doesn’t hold any water. Sorry. Congratulations for beating both of the problem ships we’re talking about here, I respect your accomplishments. But, as meta-wing attests, they are still problem ships.

3 hours ago, Ccwebb said:

Ok. Still spending the same amount of points.

you couldnt double tlt if it were erratad. my understanding is the way its worded you can use the tlt a second time with the title

5 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

Miranda’s ability should read “When performing an attack with your primary weapon...”

The Phantom(1) title should read “... at the end of the Combat Phase, it [the Ghost] may perform an additional attack with a <Turret Weapon Upgrade> equipped to a docked ship.”

I think everyone in the community is pretty much agreed that these two changes would be appropriate and beneficial in bringing these two ships in line. At least, in all the threads I’ve read I’ve never seen anyone actively opposed to either of these two ideas.

So what do you say, FFG? Can we go ahead and make these changes official? Or at least start running them past playestesters so that maybe by the time 2019 comes around we can get an FAQ with these changes rolled out?

---

And to the community: am I wrong? Is there anyone who wouldn’t be on board with either of those errata? Genuinely curious.

You are wrong.

I am against any changes, let the meta settle in. As newest examples show Howard's aces are becoming a thing hard countering Ghosts. Also, Miranda is not a problem if you know how to fly against her.
The fact that there are not so many posts opposing "brilliant" game changing ideas is simple - good players more often than not ignore this forum, a lot of posts are not about better gameplay, tactics or list building (with few exceptions). Most of the posts are constant whining put forth by players that do not understand this game, yet want to be a developers and change game to their tastes.
In my LGS are about 10 players, no one with the exception of me, visits this forum, it is waste of time for them.

You kill Miranda, you end up with a K-wing aces pack. Is that what you want? Also what the guy above said.

Couldn't you just power creep the Ghost out of the meta ?

4 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

(Technically I never actually called either change a nerf- I’d consider them tweaks to make it so that certain cards *coughTLTcough* can’t be exploited in ways that weren’t originally intended. I know I know, it’s just semantics, but still. )

Anyway, every time there has been a problem ship or combo or list people have tried to argue “it’s not unbeatable” as a reason not to make any changes. There has never been a list that has been unbeatable, so the “I can beat it” argument doesn’t hold any water. Sorry. Congratulations for beating both of the problem ships we’re talking about here, I respect your accomplishments. But, as meta-wing attests, they are still problem ships.

Semantics Schmantics. What you're calling for is a nerf, and a large one at that. TLT has never been broken, and Miranda was explicitly designed around its use.

As a player of the game for going on 4 years now, I'm getting rather tired of nerfs that completely remove lists and archetypes from the game. And that is exactly what your proposed changes would do. Miranda and the Ghost are fine additions. I like them, and I would hate to have them be completely gone.

Also, yes there have been lists that were effectively unbeatable, and completely warped the meta around their existence. Take a look at the latest regional's top 8. Decent variety of lists there. It leans Rebel, sure, but there's a pretty big variety within even that. And yes, the fact that an off-meta Imperial can beat 154 other lists to the top seed means something. There have been metas in this game where that never would have happened.

good players more often than not ignore this forum, a lot of posts are not about better gameplay, tactics or list building

Also this. I'm only even wading in on a few things right now because I'm getting so **** sick of the complaining. Use your head and consider how you should beat the latest meta bull before you go whining for more nerfs. That's half the fun of this game.

9 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

---

And to the community: am I wrong? Is there anyone who wouldn’t be on board with either of those errata? Genuinely curious.

Yes, they're both unnecessary and stupid. Just play the game and shut up moaning ffs.

Things seem well balanced to me ,see to the system open + regional results so far.

Ever so , its about flying better then your opponent , make the right decisions and so on and so on

I dont get the whole recurring discussions about nerf this and that and ,oh hey , i dont like that ability , its to stronk , nerf miranda ...nerf tlt ... ridiculous.

Play better, stop complaining .

As Flyinganchors said, Miranda is the last thing keeping kwings alive after adv slam nerf. Kwing is an awesome ship. Don't ruin it. If you need to nerf something, nerf sabine crew.

I support for Ghost change!

I generally think though that Fenn Rau is an even bigger problem. But ALSO that the Ghost and Miranda are problems.

I don't like Miranda at all, but imo, I'm extremely wary about this change for Miranda... People who play Miranda a lot, what's your take?

1 hour ago, DarkArk said:

As a player of the game for going on 4 years now, I'm getting rather tired of nerfs that completely remove lists and archetypes from the game. And that is exactly what your proposed changes would do. Miranda and the Ghost are fine additions. I like them, and I would hate to have them be completely gone.

Its the exact opposite.

Dominant Archetypes completly remove the bazzillon possible other squads from the Meta.

Whisper removed EVERY jouster. Reducing meta to Fathan

Deadeyejumpmaster removed a whole faction.And so on and on....

This SEEMS normal, cause it was almost always the case. If you want to play competitively (aka aim to win a tournament) you are reduced to approx 10-20 Pilots...... out of 234 . That is 5 to 10 %. Right now it is reduced to max. 10 out of 234 ...if you want to win a tournament. You have to have at least 2 out of the top 10 Pilots in your squad. Imagine any other strategiegame like total war warhammer or starcraft with such a distorted balance. Only using zealots and archons the rest is crap. X-wing right know totally runs on it formidabel core-mechanic. The balancing is outrigth terrible. It is obvious that their is no one responsible for balancing the game at FFG. Maybe this is intentional.

Here are the foreseeable answers to my opinion:

You dont have to play.....chose another game.....you dont have a clue.....i won yesterday against my granny so theres no problem...you cant win, so you want to nerf EVERYTHING......

If i might answer that bevorhand:

I love to play, cause i love the game...more than any other game, cause its mechanic is brilliant....i am not only playing the game, but analys it since the i started in wave4...i have won tournaments.

Regarding Ghost and its titles, why not make it so that you have to choose between shoot out of the butt, or take the second turret shot in end phase..

The range of The Ghosts arcs and turret with an equipped shuttle is what makes it scary. It would primarly strenghten arc dodgers, but atleast it gives each list a way of avoiding a shot alltogether without bumping.

Ps11 boosting would still be an issue, but killing Fenn first kan atleast take it away for parts of The game.

10 hours ago, GreenLantern1138 said:

The way the post is written, all you'd have to do is put the TLT on the shuttle instead of the Ghost, and that's still only 6 points.

I am beyond amazed at peoples lack of understanding on the OPs simple proposed changes.

1 hour ago, Zura said:

As Flyinganchors said, Miranda is the last thing keeping kwings alive after adv slam nerf. Kwing is an awesome ship. Don't ruin it. If you need to nerf something, nerf sabine crew.

What about the whole biggs situation, what we want is to bring her down two pegs so we can have an upgrade that lifts them (k-wings) all up one peg. See x wing fix title and flight assist astromech.

Just now, Scum4Life said:

What about the whole biggs situation, what we want is to bring her down two pegs so we can have an upgrade that lifts them (k-wings) all up one peg. See x wing fix title and flight assist astromech.

Then they should have nerfed miranda instead of adv slam. They took away this "one peg" and only left miranda for kwing enthustiasts. The whole slam thing was advertisted as something that is supposed to help you with bombing, yet now it only works well for reload on gunboats. Why nerf it first and then suddenly buff it? It's just some weird design. X wings were always lacking. It's not like they were nerfed first, then they nerfed biggs, then they relase a new title to help them. It was always only about biggs.

16 minutes ago, Zura said:

Then they should have nerfed miranda instead of adv slam. They took away this "one peg" and only left miranda for kwing enthustiasts. The whole slam thing was advertisted as something that is supposed to help you with bombing, yet now it only works well for reload on gunboats. Why nerf it first and then suddenly buff it? It's just some weird design. X wings were always lacking. It's not like they were nerfed first, then they nerfed biggs, then they relase a new title to help them. It was always only about biggs.

Miranda and Dengar have been top tier ships for a long time, once the JM5k lost access to unhinged astromech and both Torpedo slots Dengar was balanced in my opinion, his current builds are more pricy and less forgiving than they used to be.

Miranda was nerfed via advanced slam Errata but is arguably as strong as ever with bomblet generator. And when was the last tie you saw any other k-wings pilot.

Ffg can't fix a ship if it would cause any leady meta dominant ship to rise to godlike status. Especially when other ships practically never see meta play. So I think each year we should get two different ship fixes and if necessary a pilot nerf so it won't make a monster.

M

1 hour ago, Scum4Life said:

Miranda and Dengar have been top tier ships for a long time, once the JM5k lost access to unhinged astromech and both Torpedo slots Dengar was balanced in my opinion, his current builds are more pricy and less forgiving than they used to be.

Miranda was nerfed via advanced slam Errata but is arguably as strong as ever with bomblet generator. And when was the last tie you saw any other k-wings pilot.

Ffg can't fix a ship if it would cause any leady meta dominant ship to rise to godlike status. Especially when other ships practically never see meta play. So I think each year we should get two different ship fixes and if necessary a pilot nerf so it won't make a monster.

But we don't need a kwing fix. My point is, a perfect "fix" was old nerfed adv slam. They could have nerfed miranda/sabine instead, they didn't. Now they should stuck with their choice instead of landing a killing blow on the ship and then fix it and bring it back to square one.

13 hours ago, Herowannabe said:

Miranda’s ability should read “When performing an attack with your primary weapon...”

Nope. Should be in arc.
That would get rid of the "fleeing while regening" problem and the 3 dice primary covering TLT's donut hole , while having her be a powerful ordnance carrier -isn't it the purpose of a K-wing ?-.

Double post.

4 hours ago, Scum4Life said:

What about the whole biggs situation, what we want is to bring her down two pegs so we can have an upgrade that lifts them (k-wings) all up one peg. See x wing fix title and flight assist astromech.

No no no. We can't bring Miranda down 2 pegs, her wings are too wide and it will interfere.

Lifting all K-wings up one peg I am 100% in favor of.

9 hours ago, DarkArk said:

Semantics Schmantics. What you're calling for is a nerf, and a large one at that. TLT has never been broken, and Miranda was explicitly designed around its use.

As a player of the game for going on 4 years now, I'm getting rather tired of nerfs that completely remove lists and archetypes from the game. And that is exactly what your proposed changes would do. Miranda and the Ghost are fine additions. I like them, and I would hate to have them be completely gone.

Also, yes there have been lists that were effectively unbeatable, and completely warped the meta around their existence. Take a look at the latest regional's top 8. Decent variety of lists there. It leans Rebel, sure, but there's a pretty big variety within even that. And yes, the fact that an off-meta Imperial can beat 154 other lists to the top seed means something. There have been metas in this game where that never would have happened.

Also this. I'm only even wading in on a few things right now because I'm getting so **** sick of the complaining. Use your head and consider how you should beat the latest meta bull before you go whining for more nerfs. That's half the fun of this game.

8 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Yes, they're both unnecessary and stupid. Just play the game and shut up moaning ffs.

12 hours ago, Embir82 said:

You are wrong.

I am against any changes, let the meta settle in. As newest examples show Howard's aces are becoming a thing hard countering Ghosts. Also, Miranda is not a problem if you know how to fly against her.
The fact that there are not so many posts opposing "brilliant" game changing ideas is simple - good players more often than not ignore this forum, a lot of posts are not about better gameplay, tactics or list building (with few exceptions). Most of the posts are constant whining put forth by players that do not understand this game, yet want to be a developers and change game to their tastes.
In my LGS are about 10 players, no one with the exception of me, visits this forum, it is waste of time for them.

Wow, holy assumptions and prejudices Batman!

Let’s clear up a few things:

I’ve been playing since fall 2013- so 4 1/2 years? 4 1/3 years? I don’t know why that matters but there you go.

I’m not complaining about the Ghost or Miranda. I challenge you to find one of my posts where I have “complained” or “whined” about either of these ships- or about anything in general. It’s just not in me to whine about stuff.

I do not have a problem beating these ships or other top tier meta lists. Heck, as I believe I mentioned earlier, I enjoy flying the Ghost. I took a Maulzra Ghost to Regionals and had a lot of fun- I didn’t have Fenn Rau flying support, but that was before people had really figured out that interaction. If I had figured it out I would have brought Fenn, too.

Ironically, I lost two games that tournament, both of them against Nymiranda (pre TS/Genius clarification). You can actually hear all about one of those games on the Regionals recap episode of the Back to Dials from a few weeks back. I was Duhtch’s opponent in the game that he talks the most about. Give it a listen and see if I came off as being whiny to Duhtch (spoiler: it’s just the opposite).

Since Regionals I haven’t even faced the Ghost or Miranda on the other side of the table, so... yeah.

I do still support the changes in the first post, because I believe it will create a better overall environment and meta to play X-Wing in. In both cases, each ship can still do what it’s designed to do, but it opens up counterplay options (kind of like when FFG nerfed/tweaked/changed/whatever x7 Defenders and Palpatine and Biggs and etc).

For Miranda, she can still kite and regen, but she has to give up a bit of damage output to do it (and in the game against Duhtch I mentioned above it wouldn’t have made any difference, I still would have lost that game for the same reasons).

For the Ghost, either they have to put the turret on the Phantom and try to line up shots in arc in order to get the double tap, or pay extra points to put a Turret on the Ghost and a Turret on the Phantom.

Now, thank you for expressing your opinions. I see that these tweaks aren’t as universally supported as I thought they were, and I’ll edit the first post accordingly. But please, let’s leave the venom and pre-judgements out of it, shall we? At the very least, try not to be more whiny than the people you’re accusing of being whiny. Thanks.