There is nothing wrong with TIE bombers. Love 'em. 6 of them for 54 points is a steal. And while Rhymer was great, the Bombers themselves almost always have the range to do what they do best and plink away.

They will come back. The current big ship meta really demands it.

A well flown Rhymerball ended won the whole thing at the big and extremely competitive So Cal regional. It faced a diverse set of match ups featuring a lot of the typical meta lists- Rieekan aces, double cymoon, Sato MC75, etc all played by extremely skilled players. I know any one of his opponents stood a good chance of winning the whole thing, so it wasn't a light strength of schedule, the dude earned his win the hard way.

All that to say in wave 7 squads are strong, and Rhymer isn't quite out of the fight yet. His skill floor just got raised considerably in my opinion. He's no longer point and shoot.

Isn't it ok that he's not an auto take? I mean for the imps in general. In my humble experience auto takes can really throw a wrench in things. Dunno just wondering if it's really that big of a deal. It's not like the data provided showed that all of a sudden he dissapeared just got reduced to other aces used. Again just trying to figure this out.

2 hours ago, TheCallum said:

But why are you just shooting them with one ship? What are the rest of your ships doing? Even without squadrons, you’ll have something else to do damage.

As I said above, this is why everyone thinks flak sucks.

Becuase the odds of having squadrons in range of more then one ship at a time has always been extremely low. Besides given the relatively low number of dice compared to most main arcs you want most of your ships shooting other ships and your squadrons dealing with squadrons. I disagree that to many feel flak sucks they just feel the opportunity cost for using a flak attack compared to shooting another ship is too high.

5 hours ago, chr335 said:

Becuase the odds of having squadrons in range of more then one ship at a time has always been extremely low. Besides given the relatively low number of dice compared to most main arcs you want most of your ships shooting other ships and your squadrons dealing with squadrons. I disagree that to many feel flak sucks they just feel the opportunity cost for using a flak attack compared to shooting another ship is too high.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

20 hours ago, BrobaFett said:

His skill floor just got raised considerably in my opinion. He's no longer point and shoot.

Just so I am understanding you, Range 2 = easy, Range 1 = super hard?

So for everything else in the game (squadron) they are = uberhard because they have an even shorter engagement range?

Not sure I agree with your assertion here, using squadrons is pretty simple, making sure you're in range is even simpler, you have a handy tool that tells you exactly where you need to be.

Aces get abilities that are force multipliers, gaining an extra squadron base width of range is a poor ability, no matter how you and others keep trying to gussy it up as a positive change ( and it was positive in the fact it would have broken the game sans change) it was not a positive change for Rhymer, they went for the quick and easy solution, probably because they did not want to change the original text on the card to much, because that would have needed a reprint.

All I myself and others like me have been trying to say is "Yes Rhymer needed adjustment, but they made him dull in the process, dull in comparison to other Imperial Aces."

I mean lets compare Rhymer to Captain Jonus, they are virtually identical in cost, stats and base abilities, yet Jonus guarantees an accuracy result on a ship to ship engagement, and he only needs to be the width of ONE squadron base closer to the ship than Rhymer does.

Guaranteed Accuracy?!? that is a monumental force multiplier, one that if I saw it facing me on the board, I would be making sure as much as possible to deny my opponent the chance to combo me with Jonus/Ship fire, If he had Rhymer my concern would be of a magnitude lower, I'd have the concern of Bombers, but I'd have that concern Bombers with Rhymer, or Bombers without Rhymer, nothing on Rhymer is going to elevate my concern above and beyond that.

1 hour ago, TheEasternKing said:

Just so I am understanding you, Range 2 = easy, Range 1 = super hard?

So for everything else in the game (squadron) they are = uberhard because they have an even shorter engagement range?

Not sure I agree with your assertion here, using squadrons is pretty simple, making sure you're in range is even simpler, you have a handy tool that tells you exactly where you need to be.

Aces get abilities that are force multipliers, gaining an extra squadron base width of range is a poor ability, no matter how you and others keep trying to gussy it up as a positive change ( and it was positive in the fact it would have broken the game sans change) it was not a positive change for Rhymer, they went for the quick and easy solution, probably because they did not want to change the original text on the card to much, because that would have needed a reprint.

All I myself and others like me have been trying to say is "Yes Rhymer needed adjustment, but they made him dull in the process, dull in comparison to other Imperial Aces."

I mean lets compare Rhymer to Captain Jonus, they are virtually identical in cost, stats and base abilities, yet Jonus guarantees an accuracy result on a ship to ship engagement, and he only needs to be the width of ONE squadron base closer to the ship than Rhymer does.

Guaranteed Accuracy?!? that is a monumental force multiplier, one that if I saw it facing me on the board, I would be making sure as much as possible to deny my opponent the chance to combo me with Jonus/Ship fire, If he had Rhymer my concern would be of a magnitude lower, I'd have the concern of Bombers, but I'd have that concern Bombers with Rhymer, or Bombers without Rhymer, nothing on Rhymer is going to elevate my concern above and beyond that.

So... if Jonus is so vastly superior to Rhymer then why do people keep picking Rhymer over Jonus?

I'm with you on Jonus being fantastic. I personally think he's the most under rated Imperial Squadron in the game right now. But I also think Rhymer is still pretty darn good.

Jonus was an example of a Squadron that has an ability that as an opponent you need to be aware of and to be wary of, the rest for the most part have an ability that if unchecked can be devastating in the right circumstances, Rhymer is no longer a concern in that respect.

And yes, I have no idea why people keep making fleets with Rhymer in it, but as a potential opponent ...it makes me very happy they are doing so.

5 hours ago, TheEasternKing said:

Just so I am understanding you, Range 2 = easy, Range 1 = super hard?

-Snip-

Yes. Range 2 gave him a clear and obvious purpose that anyone who played 1 game Armada could see. Stay out of black flak. It made bombers deadly because end of they day they are still generics and still WILL get burned by flak combined with squaf support rather quickly.

Now his ability is... something different. You have to have a plan to use it and execute that plan in order to make him work. But obviously, when you do that he is still very effective - at that thing. Not the thing he used to be effective for.

I get that the nerf hit him hard. Imo if he was 13 or 14 points I'd use him just cause he is a double brace bomber if I was running bombers, but that doesnt serve the purpose of making him interesting as you suggest.

And Jonus doesn't get used because if you invest in ships to use his ability (raiders, GSD-2S and vsds benefit most) he gets tied down and burned and max bombers really arent a thing now (speaking nation wide, obviously not that they cant be effective )that Sloane can match their expected damage, without bcc, and from a squad with a scatter and that is also good at killing other squads.

I would venture to guess of all the fleets that include Jonus 95% of them are GSD-2 Demo or VSD warlord with jonus, dengar/jump and a couple light squads. And those fleets are just not that command because of how easy to shut down all the required moving parts are.

If corrupter bomber lists become wholesale good, then I imagine you will see Jonus. But he has a strong ability that is fairly restricted by the way points typically max out quickly in imperial squad lists.

For instance he is totally unneeded in a quasar centered fleet as they would rather have 2/3 damage than 1/2+acc, and an ISD+5 goz fleet already has a good chance at an acc from the ISD and the goz dont benefit at all. He would be awesome for yavaris and assault frigates. But he is on the wrong side of this war.

Jonus could be a crucial component of a battlecarrier Thrawn fleet, but I can never fit one into 400 points that feels like it's much good, sadly.

Rhymer was over-nerfed - I'd be happy with a points reduction or a re-nerfing that was slightly less extreme. For what it's worth, FFG is in a not-great place when it comes to limiting his range - going from medium to close is drastic, but there really aren't any distance measurements between 3 and 2 or medium and close (3 and medium being nearly identical and close and 2 being fairly close as well), so that's that.

I agree, I think he's fine with the nerf, just overcosted by a point or two.

On 07/03/2018 at 6:00 PM, Armada Jim said:

I agree, I think he's fine with the nerf, just overcosted by a point or two.

if hes overcosted then how can he be fine with the nerf?

The nerf was good.

Rhymer was all over the place since wave 1, there was no reason not to take him (and plenty of reasons to take him), and he "broke" a lot of stuff, like black flak and Quad Lasers.

Horrible game design to begin with --> the need for some way to have bombers actually deliver their payload (this was before Intel) --> other crazy stuff like GH and auto-damage --> those bad choices echoed down the waves.

Everything Imperial had to account for Rhymer.

So much stuff that might have been, that is now trash. OR close to.

Finally they decide to throw him under the bus, and I was not sad to see him go.

Btw: watching @Tokra play with Sloane + un-nerferd Rhymer... hohoho, father Christmas is here to grant you your wishes!

On 3/9/2018 at 2:57 AM, slasher956 said:

if hes overcosted then how can he be fine with the nerf?

His new rules are fine, he's just overcosted.

12 hours ago, Armada Jim said:

His new rules are fine, he's just overcosted.

But then the rules aren't fine are they? ... I mean part of the rules IS the cost /points

(yes I know what you mean but in a game where points cost is the balancing factor then they have to be taken into account when talking about a models game balance)

6 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

But then the rules aren't fine are they? ... I mean part of the rules IS the cost /points

(yes I know what you mean but in a game where points cost is the balancing factor then they have to be taken into account when talking about a models game balance)

Not necessarily.

Sonething can be broken rules wise, no matter the points assigned to it - and with Rhymers original rules, giving you the ability to strike potentially without repercussions, could have been considered so, regardless of how many points it was.

At least that’s how the design team has thought, looking back.