This is more of a hypothetical sort of question designed to get my brain wrapped around a concept of in play, out of play, setup, and the like...

• What is the Pilot Skill Value of a docked shuttle, equipped with Adaptability?
  • Does the Docked Shuttle choose a side for Adaptability when it would otherwise have been placed during setup? (seems reasonable)
  • Does it remain in a state of limbo (simultaneously +1 and -1) until it finally deploys?
  • Do dual-cards fail entirely if a ship was never actually placed during the setup phase? (obviously that's not RAI, but could RAW support this interpretation?)

Erm.

RAW the ship is never placed during the setup phase so there's no trigger point for the dual card to be placed in play.

RAI I'd assume it's placed in play and decided upon when the ship is deployed.

I could go with (1) chosen when deployed and placed in play, whether that is as-normal in the set-up phase or deployed from the ship to which it was docked (2) chosen when the ship would have needed to be placed in play in the setup phase. I think the rules don't exactly cover it, and either would be a reasonable work-around until it gets FAQ'd.

I'll note that there are Epic implications, with ships docked to a Gozanti.

Obviously, it's a very edge case scenario, that's not very likely to come up in an actual event... but it's interesting to think about, at least!

A hint:

If Bossk is equipped
with Hound’s Tooth and either Veteran
Instincts or Adaptability, the Nashtah Pup
Pilot keeps that modified pilot skill. FAQ Nashtah Pup Pilot (page 13)

Adaptability is not re-calculated.

Although I do not think that this effect is extensive to other situations.

A joke:

16 hours ago, emeraldbeacon said:

Does it remain in a state of limbo (simultaneously +1 and -1) until it finally deploys?

Schrödinger effect

The Pup isn't remotely relevant. It's an upgrade to Bossk's ship that doesn't exist until it's deployed, not a separate ship in the list. It has completely different rules.

So aplying the rules:

Docked ships (and their equipped Upgrade cards) are placed to the side of the play area

Docked ships does not skip the Place Forces step, they are placed on an different manner. As long as they are placed you must decide the effect for Adaptability and other effects applicable.

EDIT: as i understand, "the side of the play area" is part of the play area... but i may be wrong.

It exists in a state of simultaneously being both flipped to both sides, therefore creating a paradox and destroying the timeline.

Realistically? Your first bullet point seems most logical. In short, ships that are docked technically don't exist yet, so...

15 hours ago, Npmartian said:

It exists in a state of simultaneously being both flipped to both sides...

schrodinger's pilot skill?

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 8:23 AM, Arachneo said:

So aplying the rules:

Docked ships (and their equipped Upgrade cards) are placed to the side of the play area

Docked ships does not skip the Place Forces step, they are placed on an different manner. As long as they are placed you must decide the effect for Adaptability and other effects applicable.

EDIT: as i understand, "the side of the play area" is part of the play area... but i may be wrong.

This is the interpretation I would follow as well (at least until it finds its way into an FAQ and we are told otherwise).

On 3/3/2018 at 5:23 AM, Arachneo said:

So applying the rules:

Docked ships (and their equipped Upgrade cards) are placed to the side of the play area

Docked ships does not skip the Place Forces step, they are placed on an different manner. As long as they are placed you must decide the effect for Adaptability and other effects applicable.

EDIT: as i understand, "the side of the play area" is part of the play area... but i may be wrong.

Agreed with @SkullNBones , this seems to be the most common sense interpretation.

On 3/3/2018 at 8:23 AM, Arachneo said:

So aplying the rules:

Docked ships (and their equipped Upgrade cards) are placed to the side of the play area

Docked ships does not skip the Place Forces step, they are placed on an different manner. As long as they are placed you must decide the effect for Adaptability and other effects applicable.

EDIT: as i understand, "the side of the play area" is part of the play area... but i may be wrong.

I'll add another vote for this.

It's an interesting question academically, but in practice does it matter? You're going to know initiative and PS values at the start as well as mid game. So you're either going to want to be down to block or up to have the later reposition and you'll know which at setup.

The only way PS can really change is with the crit down to 0 at which point Adaptability is irrelevant because you're going to be above them either way.

It matters because arguably, by RAW, the step in which you actually SET the face of your dual card is not undertaken for docked ships.

Which is obviously not correct RAI, but exactly when it takes place for them is not clear.

It might well matter, because if they ALSO have adaptability on a ship which can get into PS clashes with you, your being able to set yours after they set theirs could make a big difference to init (e.g. a PS5 enemy with Adapt opposite Adapt Ezra in the shuttle - normally he'd have to set his first, but it might be that when docked, he doesn't set it until he deploys). It's rare that it would happen, but in the unlikely event that it does, it makes a difference.

And either way, it would be good for the official rules ot be clear. Grey areas are bad.

It's also useful to have an understanding, because it may help us solve other rules questions. Before this thread had been posted, I started to wonder about the question myself, because of the Thweek vs Docked Ship questions in another thread.

This reminds me of the arguments about landing on rocks outside of the activation phase with tractor beams. Initially as written being tractored onto an obstacle during combat didn’t do anything and things needed to be clarified. Several times.

It was intended that ships suffer the effects of landing on an obstacle but the writing just wasn’t clear enough. And this is a game of words and rules lawyers.

So I suspect it is intended that Docked ships can choose dual upgrades but as of now the RAW just don’t allow it outside setup, and unless FFG sees it as a problem we aren’t going to see anything in the FAQ anytime soon.

and emails don’t cut it.

I want to say that I honestly love how open and civil the discussions in this thread are. That is all. Carry on.

17 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

It matters because arguably, by RAW, the step in which you actually SET the face of your dual card is not undertaken for docked ships.

Which is obviously not correct RAI, but exactly when it takes place for them is not clear.

I think that this is clear.

Quote

SETUP (From Rules Reference)

Before playing, set up the game as follows:

1. Gather Forces: The players reveal their squads and gather all of the ships, cards, and other components necessary for their squads. Each ship in the squad must have the correct plastic ship, ship token, maneuver dial, Ship card, and any Upgrade cards chosen, as well as ID tokens if necessary.

2. Determine Initiative

3. Establish Play Area: Establish a 3' x 3' (0.9144 m) play area (or alternative size) on a flat surface such as a table or playmat.

4. Place Obstacles

5. Place Forces: The players place their ships into the play area in order from lowest pilot skill to highest pilot skill. If multiple ships tie in pilot skill, the player with initiative places his ships with that pilot skill first. Ships must be placed within Range 1 of their player’s edge.

6. Activate Shields

7. Prepare Other Components

Setup (from Learn To Play guide)

3. Establish Play Area: Establish a 3' x 3' play area on a flat surface. The players place their cards and dials outside the play area near their factions’ edge.

In black, I remarked the quote that indicates where the cards are placed. Since the rule reference does not mention that, it may not be correct or it may be an obsolete clause, but this is the way that people makes.

Quote

Definition for Play Area:

The play area is the defined area on a flat surface in which the ships are placed and maneuvered. If any part of a ship’s base is outside the play area, that ship has fled the battlefield. The recommended play area is 3' x 3' (0.9144 m) for a standard 100-point dogfight. If playing with squads greater or less than 100 squad points, the players can expand or contract the play area in one or both dimensions to create a suitable space for the game.

• The play area for all missions is 3' x 3' unless the mission specifies otherwise.

Quote

Definition for Dual Upgrade Cards:

When a ship equipped with a Dual Upgrade card is placed in the play area during setup, its equipped Dual Upgrade card can be placed with either side faceup.

Dual Upgrade cards are not active until they are placed in the play area during setup. Only the faceup side of a Dual Upgrade card is active.

From here i understand that "Play Area" extends to the ship cards and their upgrades??.

Otherwise, dual upgrade cards never can be played because " The players place their cards and dials outside the play area near their factions’ edge." clause is here and " Dual Upgrade cards are not active until they are placed in the play area during setup"

So, you must place the Adaptability card... in wich part of the Play Area? There is an inconsistency. Take the easy way, if a ship is placed in the play area, their card and upgrades are in the Play Area. I think that " in the play area " sentence in the Dual upgrade cards activation is a mistake and must be deleted. Or may be " they " may be replaced by "the ship equipped" to a better understanding.

Quote

DOCKED SHIPS

Some card abilities allow players to dock ships to a carrier ship.

Docked ships (and their equipped Upgrade cards) are placed to the side of the play area, and are considered to be inactive for all purposes (they are not assigned dials in the Planning phase, they cannot attack, be attacked, perform actions, be assigned tokens, be target locked, etc.).

Ships can be docked pregame, during squad building, and players must pay squad points for these ships as normal.

If the carrier ship flees the battlefield, it and all its docked ships are destroyed.

If the carrier ship is destroyed (but has not fled the battlefield), before it is removed from the play area, each docked ship receives 1 facedown Damage card and must immediately deploy. Ships deployed in this fashion cannot attack until the following round.

Now we have a new extension for Play Area: " the side of the play area" . That side is within the 3x3 flying area? I think not, because is annoying to be moving the cards and the inactive ship constantly. So i think "the side of the play area" is where you put your cards to have control of damage and upgrades. And as i understand "the side" of anything is part of that anything.

The setup phase begin with Gather Forces step. You must have the card of the Docked Ship and their upgrades. You must place to have control of it.

You can't skip any step of the setup as long as the rules for Docked Ships does not specify that you can skip any step. Only think you have is: Docked ships (and their equipped Upgrade cards) are placed to the side of the play area where you have to place the ship (and their upgrade cards) in a different way.

Quote

Phantom Titles:

While you are docked, the Ghost can perform primary weapon attacks from its special firing arc and, at the end of the Combat phase, it may perform an additional attack with an equipped Turret. If it performs this attack, it cannot attack again this round.

While you are docked, the Ghost can perform primary weapon attacks from its special firing arc. While you are docked, at the end of the Activation phase, the Ghost may perform a free coordinate action

This is another point. A card from an inactive ship can affect a ship in the flying area (remember the inactive ship is in the side of the play area). So the ship is not Out of Play, it is inactive. The ship is in play.

As there is no definition for inactive and taking into account that there are actions that may affect the docked ship (deploy), I consider that the ship can not be affected by game effects that do not target it directly (specifying "Docked ship" in their text) and that himself can not affect other ships unless his abilities or those of his cards so indicate.

Quote

Adaptability FAQ

Ships equipped with Adaptability do not alter their pilot skill until they are placed in the play area during Setup. For example, a Green Squadron Pilot equipped with Adaptability would be placed in the play area during setup at pilot skill 3. As soon as it is placed, it may choose to raise its pilot skill to 4 or lower it to 2.

There are an explanation. You place the ship during Setup and Adaptability "triggers". Docked Ship is placed during Setup in "the side of the play area", Adaptability "triggers". Easy

That's certainly a logical way to rule it in the absence of official rulings, yes.

But RAW on dual cards is that they are set when the ship concerned is placed *in* the play area (i.e. the 3x3 or 3x6 map) during setup, at the relevant ships PS.

Docked ships are never so placed.