Hi,

I picked this game up a few months ago, and have been more or less bumbling through the setting as best I can. As a preface, this is the first time I've done anything with the 40k universe, the extent of my familiarity being that I know there's a miniatures game. As such, I've been largely relying on wiki entries, fluff from the books, and HP Lovecraft to reference anything that I throw into my campaigns. If it's not quite cannon, I don't particularly care as long as it's close enough.

The latest leg of my adventure will see the characters tracking down a renegade psycher who has far too much information on the Black Ships nature and wants to establish a haven where his evolved kind can remain in peace. He's been foiled in the past, and has decided to build up his influence from the ground up by heading to a feudal world.

Now this is where my understanding falls flat about the universe. This, so far, is what I believe to be true of feudal worlds: these worlds are primitive societies where the vast majority of people know nothing about the true Imperium. This could either be by design of the leaders in aeons past, or by circumstance removing their ability to contact the greater universe. Space travel, modern weaponry, and mechanical devices would seem like magic, and any "proof" to the contrary would be in archaic writings from thousands of years ago that would seem like a strange myth from a dead civilization. The leaders of these worlds would likely know more about the Imperium, as they might pay taxes in manpower and psychers to the mysterious beings who appear every generation or so. Whether the leaders know anything beyond this is up in the air, and largely immaterial. They could well think that the tax collectors are gods who must be appeased. The Imperial Cult would again likely exist due to the influence of the Ecclisarchy, but again, it would likely take a unique shape due to the remoteness of direct teaching from the clerics and the amount of time that has passed.

Now the question is, how far off the mark am I here? I understand that in a sense it's accurate, as with a million planets surely one resembles this model. But is this the norm for a feudal world? If not, how are they normally run? The reason I'm asking is that if so, these planets would seem ripe for heretics to gain a foothold by slipping under the radar of the the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy. Another question is if such a world existed, would there be a "prime directive" so to speak which would limit the players from bringing their futuristic weaponry into such a society?

I would not say that "they do not know nothing about the imperium" is true by default. Take Seraphis Secundus, for example. It is a feudal world, but the people are fully aware that they are mining the ore "for the Emporer and his many other kingdoms beyound the skies" (my take!).

The difference is that they do not understand the technology and the science. Even less then any other citizen does. The kings and baron know of "other worlds" and know that "travell is by spaceship" and the smaller shuttles deliver the stuff up to the larger ships... but the have no real idea or concept of it.

On the other hand, the people CAN be that ignorant. But it is not the "default" in my opinion.


Thereby, you are pretty free to come up with your "feudal world" as long as the majority of the people (the peasants) live lives void of all tech technical wonders the rest is used to.

This, so far, is what I believe to be true of feudal worlds: these worlds are primitive societies where the vast majority of people know nothing about the true Imperium.

Yes. Think pre-industrial revolution, anything from the time of Roman Empire to the Middle Ages basically. The local farmers don´t know nor care about some distant overlord. Their master is the Duke living in his castle in the next valley. They are concerned about the drought affecting their harvest.

The leaders of these worlds would likely know more about the Imperium, as they might pay taxes in manpower and psychers to the mysterious beings who appear every generation or so.

They have to know by default. The Imperium rules through the local power structure. A local president/king/dictator is named the Imperial Governor of the planet. He has certain responsibilities ( paying the tithe, controlling psykers etc, ). The Imperium provides access to interstellar markets, security from outside enemies and some technical support for the local elite.

The Imperial Cult would again likely exist due to the influence of the Ecclisarchy, but again, it would likely take a unique shape due to the remoteness of direct teaching from the clerics and the amount of time that has passed.

SOP of the Ecclesiarchy is to integrate the local religion to the Imperial Creed if possible. Typically the local gods and spirits are represented as manifestations of the Emperor and various Imperial Saints. Basically what early christianity did with pagan holidays IRL.

Another question is if such a world existed, would there be a "prime directive" so to speak which would limit the players from bringing their futuristic weaponry into such a society?

Generally no. But the PC;s should take into account the fact, that there will be no resupply available for high-tech gear. If they run out of bolter ammo shooting some local version of womp rats, the next shop packing them might be in the next star system.

Bobby Fett said:

Every planet is ripe for heretics to slip in under the radar, citizen! It's what they do. That is why you, dear citizen, must be ever vigilant yourself and report to your master that which is different, that which doesn't quite fit in. If you can't report to your master, you must then cast the stone yourself and light the pyre that will cleans the deviant! In other words, it doesn't take knowledge and high-tech gizmoes to engage in good old-fashioned xenophobic hatred and bigotry ;-)

If a heretic has the resources to find and hide (and not be born on and thus a home-grown heretic) on a feudal or feral world relying on lack of communication as his cover, then could easily lose himself on a hive world and become "just anouther face in the crowd". Both options have their strengths and weaknesses.

If the heretic is from off world, then going to a feudal or feral world is going to leave a trail as fewer ships tend to go to those places and his landing boat would have a greater chance of being noticed and remembered by the populace... if anyone fallows him. Likewise, the populace would be a lot more intollerant of that which is different then those found on a world which recives more off-worlders. On the flip-side, with the traffic that surrounds hive worlds, the heretic becomes something of a needle in a haystack as there's ships everywhere always coming and going and streams of landers rising and falling to the planet. However, there's also eyes and ears everywhere which, if they spot him, could report him at any time... but they'd have to know what to look for in the first place...

Ok, both of these answers have helped quite a bit! It's also pointed out why I love this setting - the GM has quite a bit of liberty in deciding the specifics of these worlds: How did they become backwards? Why / how often does the Imperium interact with them (if at all)? What does the nobility know? I imagine that if direct military Imperial help were required, the planet wouldn't remain ignorant for too long!

Again, this is another assumption I'm making, but it seems that the Imperium itself doesn't particularly care about how a planet is run, as long as the taxes are paid, heresy is stomped out, and xenos take no interest. It might even be preferable for a planet to be backwards and uncivilized, as the population from these planets might make particularly skilled marines if they've survived harsh conditions, and fanatical if they are of a backwards, religious mindset.

I don't know much about the actual setting of 40k, so I'm unfamiliar with specific worlds. But a mining colony being feudal seems a little strange to me. Wouldn't it be more efficient, from the point of view of the Administratum, if they locals had access to the Emperor's sacred technologies to better harvest His resources (assuming the resource is otherwise difficult to obtain)? By common sense, it would seem the Administratum (or smugglers) would take involvement in any planet that had a resource of value, assuming of course that contact is kept with such a planet over the ages. I would rather see a planet becoming feudal if they have little of value beyond manpower, as the galaxy would just lose contact by disinterest.

Bobby Fett said:

Sepherus Secundus is in the core DH book, pg 303-307.

It most definitly shows you know nothing of the 40k universe if you think that efficincy and the Administratum go hand in hand though

Seriously, the Administratum couldn't give two shakes as to how efficiently Sepherus Secundus is mined. They have assessed it, noted that it's rich with ore, and have levied their tieth that the planet MUST provide. It's now up to the planet to figure out how to meet the tieth, being as efficient or inefficient as they wish, just as long as that tieth is meet. Hell, it might even be in the planets best interest to not be terribly efficient else they might give the Administratum the impression that they could provide more and Administratum will just raise the tieth.

Sepherus Secondus uses man power in their mines, not machine power. For them, and the vast majority of the Imperium, people are a lot easer to make and maintain then machines are. After all, it takes someone with certain essoteric knowledges and sanctions from the Cult Mechanicus to make a machine, but any two brain-dead idiots can make a person.

Graver said:

Heh, yeah this makes sense. I would almost expect that a motivated group of smuggler exploiters would run a more efficient operation than the Administratum now that I think about it. Raises a good point that I should probably make the higher levels of the Adeptus less focused on efficiency to more resemble an idle nobility more focused on maintaining their power, delegating most work down the chain.

Bobby Fett said:

Exactly. You have to remember that the Administratum is a Galaxy spanning bureaucracy of nightmarish proportions. It has been grinding forward by inertia for ten thousand years. "Tradition" and "precedent" are the key words, not "innovation" or "efficiency".

An additional world on Seraphis Secundus:

Besides what have been (correctly) pointed out about the Administratum, it could (in addition) as well be the case that the nobility can not afford to have better machinery.

Maintenance have already been pointed out. You need the blessings of the Machine-God (and thereby, the Adeptus Mechanicus) to keep complex machine running. On Seraphis itself, no infrastructure off technicians has ever been raised. Think of a group of barons going out to buy some machinery from a jump trade. With HEAVY costs to them... then, the machine starts working...for two weeks, then something breaks down. While spare parts where part of the deal and a familiy of technomants was "sold" alongside, the needed spare part is not available. The baron get´s enraged since the machine cost him more then a whole village of serfs, hangs the technomants for their incompetency goes on as he is used to. If talking to other nobles, he talks about the uselessness of "so called high tech. High seems to refer to the price. BAH!".

Of course, one could reason that the Mechanicus has founded interest that many ore is provided...but the ore isn´t going straight to the forgeworld next to Seraphis Secundus but somewhere else (perhaps a central hub of the Administratum) and there is no evidence to the Mechanicus that helping THIS backwater world would give them a benefit. While this other backwater world which happens to be THEIR demise... well, you see where I go.

If things do not make sense, add a little "40kish madness", politics, and stubbornness... it doesn´t make things logical beliefable, but it gives a "feeled reason" and provides an enteraining grim and frustrating picture of the imperium.

Actually a noble on Sepherus Secundus tried just that. He made a deal with the AdMech to provide him with improved mining machinery and to educate some of his serfs in their maintenance and use. It cose him a fortune, but within a few years the output of his mines outstripped that of the other nobles. As a result they united against him, starting a civil war and massive insurrection that only ended with his capture and execution. His lands were split up and the other nobles went back to business as usual.

macd21 said:

I imagine that another motive, beyond jealosy (although that was undoubtedly the primary drive for this execution), is the fact that it's easier to control a population that is ignorant, starved and powerless. By retarding technology, tyrants have a much easier time maintaining their position, which meets their immediate needs just fine. The same reason why the Vatican tried to outlaw crossbows, guns, and cannons.

Bobby Fett said:

In the Traveler RPG ( the New Era ) they had a term for this. TED ( Technologically Elevated Dictator ). If you have ( even limited ) access to weapons that are higher tech than what the local majority uses, you have a major advantage. The local peasant mob is armed with bows, pitchforks and axes while the Dukes personal guard has a company worth of automatic rifles ( or even lasguns ), supplied by some visiting Rogue Trader. The chances of the uprising succeeding don´t look good...

Like in Zillman´s Domain (core rules, p.326) where the king is the king because he owns a lasgun....

I wonder how the king keeps traders from importing more lasguns? Having just ONE is a little fragile a powerbase. My only guess is that importing another lasgun would be treated by the Imperium as "ursupation or support of ursupation of a loyal and rightful imperial goveneur".

Another good example here is Iocanthus, where the "Vai" rule by military might... and the military might is moder weapon and vehicles imported through the planets soul (and 100% imperial controlled) spaceport "Port Suffering".

Actually, the nobles on topic-opening Seraphis Secundus rule the same way, with the "Royal Scourges" (rulings monarch forces) being the best equipped military unit...and kept that way.

Bobby Fett said:

It wasn't jealousy, it was fear. They were afraid of both his educated serfs demanding better conditions for themselves (which would have spread to their own subjects) and they feared his growing power would allow him to take the throne.

macd21 said:

Hence the other nobles' simple expedient of the cry, "HERESY!!!"

Indeed!

The questions of "why hasn't somebody just imported machinery" keeps popping up in our groups discussions too. And the incident at Sephiris Secundus illustrates it well: Whenever you rock the boat by upsetting the Status Quo, you piss off everyone with current positions of authority. You might please those who stand to gain, but they are the ones with no power, and their support means little. Pissing of the rulers is never good for your health.

To the original poster: It seems to me your understanding of the setting is spot on. Welcome to the 41st millennium and to these forums. Like you, I have fallen in love with the setting that is rich enough to provide resaons, motivations and detail where needed, yet provide flexibility enough to make whatever concepts you desire fit in "somewhere"

But while we're on the tangent: Just what WOULD happen if a guy (Acolyte of the =I=) steps of a landing shuttle on Zillman's Domain wearing autopistols, a bolter and a lasgun?

Darth Smeg said:

DRAT!!! You have asked one of those dreaded "it just depends" questions!

I can only say, as one example, take Maggots in the Meat. In that scenario, the acolytes are sent to the Feudal World of Acreage. It is no big deal if they show up wearing/wielding high-tech implements, since the feudal ruler of the planet is in the midst of a civil war, and both sides are importing off-world mercenaries to assist them.

Other circumstances would warrant different outcomes.

Darth Smeg said:

Maybe it was a different world, but I'm fairly sure the main rulebook mentions that the population of that planet burns people as witches for using technology as simple as microbeads. They'd probably be overcome by an angry mob. Great modern weaponry or not, it's still only 3 Acolytes versus tens or hundreds of superstitious townsfolk. They probably wouldn't last long.

True, but if the King is King because he has a Lasgun, and 3 people arrive each carrying TWO Lasguns... REALLY BIG Lasguns, in fact... Then what?

Burn them? But what about the King? Burn him too? And if the Lasgun is the Symbol of Office and Power, then these fellas must be the Kings og Kings, aye?

I imagine there will be different people with different aims: Some might do anything to aquire these items of power for themselves, while the powers that be might seek to control/restrict the movement of such dangerous devices. I guess in many ways it would be like someone stepping of a private airplane in a modern day city carrying assaultrifles and RPG launchers. I'd expect a rapid response from local authorities

Darth Smeg said:

Well, my guess is that, in this case, Joe Serf would see those lasgun-wielding strangers as trouble waiting to happen and would try to stay out of their vincinity, letting Somebody Else deal with this situation. So, the strangers would deal with very polite, very helpful and very eager to get out of there locals. Until some figure of authority takes the initiative, of course.

That's what my group said when they read about Zillmans domain.

Of course the answer is yes you could organise a coup and become King. Unfortunately you will never actually make the money back that your spent getting to that planet and enjoy your primitive mud ball for the next generation until the tithe ship turns up to collect and hope you have enough to get offworld.