TLT can cost 8 points, still no contest with other turrets

3 minutes ago, DicesonFire said:

TLT can cost 8 points, still no contest with other turrets

And it would be used on nothing except already problematic ships.

That's the problem that I have when people call for drastic cost- or rules-changes: too often, those people are making suggestions that will obliterate the upgrade from play altogether. (I'm think some people are doing so deliberately, and some people are doing so out of simple ignorance of the implications of their suggestions. Sometimes it's difficult to tell which.) I don't think it's impossible to have an upgrade that warrants nuking-from-orbit, but it's not at all likely, and it's unfortunately far too likely to obliterate an upgrade that simply doesn't deserve it (c.f., Advanced SLAM for K-wings).

Give TLT a "You cannot attack again this round" clause and make Miranda primary only (on the regen side).

Bam, suddenly TLTs arent anywhere near as massive of a problem. Generics rarely have TLTs anymore, its mostly Nym, Miranda, or the Ghost (and Nym is kinda hit-or-miss if its a good idea)

Literally would only hurt the Ghost and Miranda's TLT use, as only the Ghost can fire the TLT twice anyway and Miranda's ability should be to supercharge her ordnance because shes a HEAVY BOMBER not a freakin fortress.

33 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

I just had a crazy idea for a fix to TLT, and not sure I've ever seen it mentioned before.

What if it got updated to say you can only equip it if your primary attack value is 2 or less?

Hwks, ywings, kwings, and tie aggressors could still take it. But ghosts, scurrgs, and attack shuttles couldn't.

This answers most of my objections to needing TLT. Miranda would still be a problem, but she could be addressed directly.

Cluster mines were FAQ'd to be improved. Crits didn't count initially.

Take a seat, young forum whiner.

1 hour ago, Vineheart01 said:

Give TLT a "You cannot attack again this round" clause and make Miranda primary only (on the regen side).

Bam, suddenly TLTs arent anywhere near as massive of a problem. Generics rarely have TLTs anymore, its mostly Nym, Miranda, or the Ghost (and Nym is kinda hit-or-miss if its a good idea)

Literally would only hurt the Ghost and Miranda's TLT use, as only the Ghost can fire the TLT twice anyway and Miranda's ability should be to supercharge her ordnance because shes a HEAVY BOMBER not a freakin fortress.

Maybe restrict Miranda's ability to in arc only so she can still use it on real weapons, but she has to actually learn to fly if she wants to use it. No more endless TLT kiting.

2 hours ago, markcsoul said:

I just had a crazy idea for a fix to TLT, and not sure I've ever seen it mentioned before.

What if it got updated to say you can only equip it if your primary attack value is 2 or less?

Hwks, ywings, kwings, and tie aggressors could still take it. But ghosts, scurrgs, and attack shuttles couldn't.

Re-posting this just so people can like it more than once.

Really great fix.

TLTs just cripple too many ships. If you dont have autothrusters you just get chewed up.

3 red dice without a focus vs 2 green dice with a focus is 40% to do 1dmg. THEN you get another attack. Where as a ship that moved and then b-rolled or boosted and fired naked is the same 40% and no more attacks, AND has to be in arc. The only difference is the arc ship as a whopping 13% for 2 dmg in a single attack. Great bonus for all the work of getting an enemy ship in arc.

You are getting two ships worth of attacking power without needing arc on any ship that does not have autothrusters. This is the biggest problem with TLT.

TLT should only trigger second shot if the first attack hits, so it can be dodged, negate problems like Ghosts double attack and Miranda regen.

The turret upgrades (all turrets) should be a support weapon, NOT the basis of all damage for an entire list. In TLTs case, a support weapon versus low agility high hit point ships. Spamming TLT or designing an entire list around it ala Ghost should not be an option. The ghost has a 4 dice primary, and would rather be at range 3 and TLT. THAT is a problem with this weapon.

Nym can be PS10, with a 3 dice primary, and get range 1 shots with 4 dice easily, but would rather equip TLT and be at range 2-3 and not worry about arcs. That is how powerful TLT is.

Its a problem, always has been. I think if you costed it at something crazy like 10pts it would still get played on the problem ships like Miranda. It needs to be changed how it functions.

3 hours ago, kris40k said:

One of the reasons I was pleasantly surprised with the Heavy Syck title buff, that it was done via errata instead of selling us yet another card.

yeah it didnt work though. scyks lost their versatility by tying the fix to the title. for example serissu and laetin need that hull to survive but also cost enough that adding point is tough

I think TLT not counting crits is the best and most elegant solution. The ghost is no longer super accurate and miranda can still regen at the cost of even less damage. Also, what everyone didn't mention, the interaction with harpoon.

If it makes y-wings and the ilk less good it doesn't matter. Just print a better single attack turret for them that can still not be abused by the ghost, namely not counting crits.

If miranda and the ghost are nerfed, then they won't see much play. A miranda only counting primary is horrible, and would only encourage the cheaper wardens to be used. Miranda is still a skill intensive ship, unique in the way it presents options and limitations to the user, and it would be good to keep it in the game. The ghost is brain dead, but it is iconic and it is good to see it in play. And nerfing it would not be viable. You either make it not attack, which makes it overcosted and the attack shuttle useless, or make it primary attack, which would make it more overpowered. Passing an extra attack at range 1-2 kind of like coordinate may be better, but again also broken with double ghosts. None of the nerfs to miranda or the ghost seem viable, except the one with the primary arc for miranda to work (but would keep miranda+LRS+harpoon still too powerful). But no viable one for the ghost. So in the end TLT is better to change, just a single one, more elegant, then print more turrets for the underused turret users. Maybe one change to the ghost is if the second attack must be done by the attack shuttle from the ghost's rear arc. This way it would work like SF's spec ops training. But it would be very weak.

So the issue is: Is there an elegant change to miranda and the ghost to keep them viable? I don't think so. Is there an elegant change to TLT? Yes, and it solves all three current issues with it. Will it hurt other turret users? No, because you can always print another good turret for them that can't be abused by the aforementioned ships. Are there non elegant solutions that keep them viable? For the ghost, ban the combo of ghost+TLT, you can still use synced. For miranda, I don't think so.

And finally, even though it might seem that the ghost is unstoppable, the meta evolution doesn't agree. FAA Fenn was stopped with expertise, and R3-A2 Fenn is stopped by Howard Aces. Nymranda also stops any ghost. The meta is much healthier than it was before the last FAQ. With the TLT cancelling crits before compare step, it will make the current god tier of ghost+miranda a bit less powerful, and will make the meta healthier. Every other proposed change will just remove miranda AND the ghost from seeing competitive play, which means at least 3 squadrons using miranda and at least 2 squadrons using the ghost would be out of the meta, MAKING THE META LESS DIVERSE. And with step 2, print good turrents for the underused turret users that can't be abused by the ghost and miranda (single attack, cancelling crits before compare step, maybe requiring front arc for a better effect), it would just add more squadrons and make the meta the most diverse, which i think everyone would agree would be the healthiest.

OP; " We've been crying about TLT long enough."

Thread; "It's broken and here's my fix!"

Worth a try I guess

Cry more.... TLT is fine..; players just need to buy more stuff....

the game is ace... keep playing

6 minutes ago, D34d guru said:

Cry more.... TLT is fine..; players just need to buy more stuff....

the game is ace... keep playing

k

4 hours ago, HolySorcerer said:

Maybe restrict Miranda's ability to in arc only so she can still use it on real weapons, but she has to actually learn to fly if she wants to use it. No more endless TLT kiting.

I was about to post th same when I read this. I don’t mind the regen working on TLT. But making it arc only will force some tougher choices from the Miranda player and, like you said, will require better flying.