4 minutes ago, Church14 said:

It forces a cap, almost regardless of points, on how much damage a single Rebel squad can do in one shot.

You mean 4, the highest in the game, with a built in source of rerolls from Keyan? This is already essentially cheaper, better, Morna with bomber and a different reroll condition.

36 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Well, it was more... if it had been restricted to large only, someone would eventually mention a faster medium ordnance boat for the Imperials, since you have large and Small’s....

kind of like the mythical rebel medium ion boat - it seems to be missing.

17 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Imps need a different large ship. Not front arc focused. Rebels have Liberty and Home One for 2 different styles of play, and now the 75 which combines them. Imps need more broad side cruisers, which perhaps a medium ordnance ship could do, similar to the MC30.

It's not necessary for both sides to fill all of the available "design space."

Let me rephrase that: It's actively bad to fill all of the available "design space" for both sides.

Asymmetric sides make for interesting games. Symmetric sides make for boring games.

Starfleet Battles is the mother of all examples:

"Hey, the Romulans have a fast torpedo cruiser, so the Federation should have a fast torpedo cruiser, too!"

"Hey, the Federation has a fast torpedo cruiser! Uh, oh, better give the Klingons a fast torpedo cruiser of their own ..."

(Yes, I exaggerate slightly. But not nearly enough.)

Warhammer 40K has been drifting into the same problems for a long time as well, although 8th edition tries to fix some of the problems. Marines just had so many options for different units that they could take, you could build nearly any play style you wanted. There was a loss in differentiation. The Tyranids are a worse example. They started off complete monsters in melee combat (appropriately ...). 'Nid player complained that they were getting shot from a distance, and GW wanted to sell new figures, so they introduced shooting 'nids (there were one or two before hand, but there were many, many limits on them. Then GW layered on more shooting 'nids. Then artillery 'nids. Then vehicle-'nids (effectively). You ended up with the ability to build a Tyranid force that looked suspiciously like an Imperial Guard army. (Again, I exaggerate, but not nearly enough.)

Resist the blender urge.

2 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

You mean 4, the highest in the game, with a built in source of rerolls from Keyan? This is already essentially cheaper, better, Morna with bomber and a different reroll condition.

I was thinking of a generic, 3 die anti-ship squadron. But your point is nearly quite valid. Keyan caps at 5 if Norra is around.

1 minute ago, elbmc1969 said:

It's not necessary for both sides to fill all of the available "design space."

Let me rephrase that: It's actively bad to fill all of the available "design space" for both sides.

Asymmetric sides make for interesting games. Symmetric sides make for boring games.

Starfleet Battles is the mother of all examples:

"Hey, the Romulans have a fast torpedo cruiser, so the Federation should have a fast torpedo cruiser, too!"

"Hey, the Federation has a fast torpedo cruiser! Uh, oh, better give the Klingons a fast torpedo cruiser of their own ..."

(Yes, I exaggerate slightly. But not nearly enough.)

Warhammer 40K has been drifting into the same problems for a long time as well, although 8th edition tries to fix some of the problems. Marines just had so many options for different units that they could take, you could build nearly any play style you wanted. There was a loss in differentiation. The Tyranids are a worse example. They started off complete monsters in melee combat (appropriately ...). 'Nid player complained that they were getting shot from a distance, and GW wanted to sell new figures, so they introduced shooting 'nids (there were one or two before hand, but there were many, many limits on them. Then GW layered on more shooting 'nids. Then artillery 'nids. Then vehicle-'nids (effectively). You ended up with the ability to build a Tyranid force that looked suspiciously like an Imperial Guard army. (Again, I exaggerate, but not nearly enough.)

Resist the blender urge.

I am all for asymmetrical design.

The rebel blue boat in my eyes would be double ion and not Interdictor or victory like st all.

and discussing imperial mediums is laughable when you compare to the rebels.... single offering ?

Design space is limited - but I have confidence we will see gaps filled while remaining asymmetrical enough

1 minute ago, Church14 said:

I was thinking of a generic, 3 die anti-ship squadron. But your point is nearly quite valid. Keyan caps at 5 if Norra is around.

But he's triple-tapping

1 minute ago, Church14 said:

I was thinking of a generic, 3 die anti-ship squadron. But your point is nearly quite valid. Keyan caps at 5 if Norra is around.

But lacks the inbuilt rerolls on that shot ?

ahhh ordnance pods on a raider ...might have made them more useable...as it is now the ship is so flimsy unless you have first last they get blown away by sqns or ships....or rogues regardless.

Yeah. Yavaris probably shouldn't work together with FCT. Though, I dunno how much that really impacts the still well and alive Rieekan aces. Very fitting behavior for a zombie general.

I kinda feel like Motti puts some limitations on Imperial design space.

It's going to be difficult for them to design a cheap large base ship just because Motti would almost assuredly ensure the ship matches the ISD in durability.... Personally I think that's why the Interdictor ended up on a medium base even though it appears (from rebels and the model itself) to be very close to the ISD in length.

I think that's part of the reason we got an ISD refit too. They washed their hands of figuring out a way to release a cheaper large base by just releasing alternate versions of the same large base at a slightly cheaper cost. If they get another large base, the only way I see it happening is as a (much) larger ship (IE SSD or Resurgent), never a smaller. Unfortunately, that area is fairly limited in the canon, so it may never happen.

I also think that's why the Imps will never get a well rounded combat medium base with speed 3 for less than 90, Motti could allow it to make the base ISD's role redundant.

Motti cramps the Imperials into either It's an ISD or smaller and cheaper but some form of janky (though the VSD has been vastly improved since wave 6, speed 2 really does add an element of jank, IMO).

41 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

I think your argument that throwing 6 b's in one activation is the same as throwing 3x2 is a red herring. It's not the same when the 3 squads you are tapping are Keyan, Ten, and Luke. Also, it's not "a little cheaper" it's about half the cost of the MC80C and 6 B's.

Yavaris absolutely limits design space. Or should I say, it SHOULD have limited design space. The fact rebels continued to get excellent aces after it was in existence is part of the reason you simply don't run rebel squadrons without Yavaris and the named bros unless you are deliberately handicapping yourself for thematic or other reasons. There has still not been a sufficient fix to this.

I agree, but fundamentally, Yavaris doesn't do anything special. It allows your squads to attack twice. Yavris is just like BTA, both components are rather weak but combined they are extremely strong. So when you add in crazy squad abilities, you can get a very powerful combo. Rieekan and the ace pack is when it got out of hand. And to my point bout it being cheaper, you can still play without Yavaris and do well because you can still push 6 squads and get attacks, which is equivalent to getting 3 double taps. The benefit is getting a pseudo 3 squads in your list, because normally you wouldn't be able to get the extra 3 attacks.

The question is whether the double tapping 3 aces is "better" than getting 6 squads with varying abilities. And I think an argument can be made for both. Dutch + Wedge? Yea, I want Yavaris for that. 6 Y-Wings? Probably not.

I think Yavaris is caught up in the cross fire of Rieekan Aces and is not a design restriction. The restriction on squad design is the huge amount of squads we already have. Yavaris would be a minor thing to consider because we have already seen how bad Rieekan Aces can be with extremely powerful squads.

I think levelling almost all the generals to 25 points would open things up a lot.

Completely disagree that rhymer nerf was too harsh. Considering the current lethality of imperial heavy squadron builds he was making many games a complete joke. The only reason he isnt used as much now is there are so many imp ace choices that are even more lethal.

The basic point that some cards restrict design options is true though. Even with ackbar, the other night playing we were observing how restictive he can be in current form of the game. Maybe he should still allow flak only from front and rear arcs?

I'm always of the opinion that design space for a game, as for anything really, isn't limited except by how we think of it. If you believe there is a limit, you'll stay in that box. Believe that it's unlimited, and while there may seem to be a box, you'll try to cut a hole in it. That said... I think it was absolutely pants to not errata Ackbar to reference non-flotillas at the release of flottilas. But to me that's cutting a hole in the imagined box to connect to a design you hadn't before gone too.

8 hours ago, BrobaFett said:

You mean 4, the highest in the game, with a built in source of rerolls from Keyan? This is already essentially cheaper, better, Morna with bomber and a different reroll condition.

Funny enough, rebel anti-squadron caps at 6 with no other buffs involved.

4 hours ago, BiggsIRL said:

Funny enough, rebel anti-squadron caps at 6 with no other buffs involved.

Yep, and 7 with the buff in the right circumstance. Fir one squadron.

The amount of 6 dicers the Inps throw in return is crazy.

14 hours ago, Snipafist said:

I agree that an Command MC80 with Flight Controllers would be fun, but it would be broken with Gunnery Teams. Similarly, there are support teams that would be fine on most ships but Engine Techs just breaks them. I wouldn't be surprised to see an upgrade at some point that opens up crew upgrade slots but with a point limit so the designers don't need to bend themselves in half to avoid the more expensive, more powerful upgrades that could go into those slots. For example, something like:

Expanded Crew Quarters
Offensive retrofit
You may equip a support crew or weapon team upgrade to this ship that costs 6 points or less, paying full cost.

I honestly don't want to have the thread devolve into discussion of that specific type of card, but it would offer an "out" for circumstances like the one you're looking for. Would also allow for some of the more fundamental upgrades (like Gunnery Team) to be used alongside some of the more niche upgrades (like Sensor Team).

This method seems to be working for X-wing

6 hours ago, ForceSensitive said:

I'm always of the opinion that design space for a game, as for anything really, isn't limited except by how we think of it. If you believe there is a limit, you'll stay in that box. Believe that it's unlimited, and while there may seem to be a box, you'll try to cut a hole in it. That said... I think it was absolutely pants to not errata Ackbar to reference non-flotillas at the release of flottilas. But to me that's cutting a hole in the imagined box to connect to a design you hadn't before gone too.

It's also why combat GR-75 cost cheaply. 6 points to upgrade flak to blue(rerollable with toryn). I think adding dice to the hull zones(if after nulling Ackbar) would have made it cost even more(true combat flotilla?)

Edit: Don't know why I suddenly could not type under the quote so I post below it

I think there's a real opening for 'all blue dice' ships, particularly for rebels at medium size. We do have the Interdictor for Imperials, but because it is rarely seen, there's still opportunity here for the Imperials.

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Yep, and 7 with the buff in the right circumstance. Fir one squadron.

The amount of 6 dicers the Inps throw in return is crazy.

No.

For 3 squadrons.

Two of them are admittedly very unlikely to roll that hot.

(Z95s have double hits on their 3 Reds)

45 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

No.

For 3 squadrons.

Two of them are admittedly very unlikely to roll that hot.

(Z95s have double hits on their 3 Reds)

Right! I stand corrected.

clearky my red die hate **** blocked knowledge of them out ??

47 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

Two of them are admittedly very unlikely to roll that hot.

But rebellions are built on hope

6 hours ago, Muelmuel said:

It's also why combat GR-75 cost cheaply. 6 points to upgrade flak to blue(rerollable with toryn). I think adding dice to the hull zones(if after nulling Ackbar) would have made it cost even more(true combat flotilla?)

Somewhat agree. And if that had been the case, maybe it would have not led to the point where they were a problem in the ace hole meta. Although I'm more of the thinking the empire just needs a cheaper one. Though I also feel that the gr75 should have had squadron 1, not 2. But seriously, where was the FFG team announcement coming out saying,"Hey all, thanks for making this game successful, we didn't initially plan this type of model and to eliminate future design issues, Ackbar now has these three words added to his card. Thanks!"

I know, don't expect perfection, but **** is it hard not to when so many other aspects are.

8 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Yep, and 7 with the buff in the right circumstance. Fir one squadron.

The amount of 6 dicers the Inps throw in return is crazy.

I am assuming you mean wedge and not Z-95s/Blount?

edit. Really have to fully read the thread.