I was having a discussion about Rhymer that got me thinking. I think it was @Snipafist that felt his nerf was way too harsh. I can't argue that too much as he has more or less disappeared since the nerf. I still think it can be good in the long run, IF the Imperials get some new bomber options that they couldn't have had before. Rhymer was the reason the Imperials couldn't have a squadron like B-Wings or even Scurrgs. Now, with the nerf I think there is room in the game for that.

So, what other ships, admirals, or upgrades do you think really restrict the designers?

My list:

• Ackbar - Every Rebel ship has to consider how strong they would be with the trapman. It's why the Rebels haven't seen a broadside ship since Wave 2, although the Armored Cruiser is close.
• Engine Techs - Any ship that gets a Support Team has to consider this upgrade. It's why the Pelta is speed 2 I think. It really restricts which ships can get Support Teams.
• Sloane - She is going to restrict future Imperial Squadron options.

I should also add that while I don't think that Ackbar, ET, or Sloane are OP, it could be worth nerfing them just to open up future design space.

Gunnery Teams are a huge consideration for ships as to whether a weapon team is appropriate for them or not. Arquitens would've been quite welcome with a weapon team slot for that reason, but they would've been discount Imperial Assault Frigates to some extent if that happened.

Some titles also cause big issues for balance going into the future: if something can be used with Yavaris , Demolisher , or Avenger (with Boarding Troopers) and get crazy, it likely needs to be tamped down. That said, someone at FFG lost the memo and made Fighter Coordination Team+Flight Commander, but that's another conversation for some other time.

14 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

Gunnery Teams are a huge consideration for ships as to whether a weapon team is appropriate for them or not. Arquitens would've been quite welcome with a weapon team slot for that reason, but they would've been discount Imperial Assault Frigates to some extent if that happened.

Some titles also cause big issues for balance going into the future: if something can be used with Yavaris , Demolisher , or Avenger (with Boarding Troopers) and get crazy, it likely needs to be tamped down. That said, someone at FFG lost the memo and made Fighter Coordination Team+Flight Commander, but that's another conversation for some other time.

I think they have even lost the memo on Avenger as well when they made Boarding Troopers

I'm glad Rhymer got nerfed. Rhymer hasn't disappeared due to the nerf, which was partially due to Sloane's insanely powerful effect on standard TIE squadrons. He's disappeared because there are so many better options now that you can't launch Sloane dice from outside black die AA range. But even then, he effectively gives squadrons Snipe vs ships, which is a fine upgrade for squads that want to get that offensive punch in from long distance.

Just now, thecactusman17 said:

I'm glad Rhymer got nerfed. Rhymer hasn't disappeared due to the nerf , which was partially due to Sloane's insanely powerful effect on standard TIE squadrons. He's disappeared because there are so many better options now that you can't launch Sloane dice from outside black die AA range. But even then, he effectively gives squadrons Snipe vs ships, which is a fine upgrade for squads that want to get that offensive punch in from long distance.

I agree that he needed a nerfing. However I totally disagree with the above. His nerfing is exactly why he isn't as prominent. (IMO of course.)

I will also add that it is to the designer's credit that there really aren't that many issues in the design space. (I agree with those listed above.)

23 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

Gunnery Teams are a huge consideration for ships as to whether a weapon team is appropriate for them or not. Arquitens would've been quite welcome with a weapon team slot for that reason, but they would've been discount Imperial Assault Frigates to some extent if that happened.

Some titles also cause big issues for balance going into the future: if something can be used with Yavaris , Demolisher , or Avenger (with Boarding Troopers) and get crazy, it likely needs to be tamped down. That said, someone at FFG lost the memo and made Fighter Coordination Team+Flight Commander, but that's another conversation for some other time.

It annoys me greatly that Gunnery teams and Engine techs seem to hog most of their respective slots. Which really sucks, because I'd love to have a MC80C with Flight controllers, but Ackbar and Gunnery teams has ruined that dream. And also it is so frustrating the the Pelta is speed 2... **** you engine techs!

I actually don't find Yavaris to be a design restriction. What Yavaris does is nothing spectacular. You could use an MC80 and 6 B-Wings to sextuple your way to victory, AND the squads get to move. Yavaris just makes it cheaper. That said, I think Yavaris would need to be nerfed to include all movement a squad makes in a round instead of just during the activation.

I think Raiders are a design restriction on all anti-squadron upgrades. Ordnance Pods would be amazing on them, but they got restricted to large ships.

Just now, Undeadguy said:

I actually don't find Yavaris to be a design restriction. What Yavaris does is nothing spectacular. You could use an MC80 and 6 B-Wings to sextuple your way to victory, AND the squads get to move. Yavaris just makes it cheaper. That said, I think Yavaris would need to be nerfed to include all movement a squad makes in a round instead of just during the activation.

I think Raiders are a design restriction on all anti-squadron upgrades. Ordnance Pods would be amazing on them, but they got restricted to large ships.

On that note - do you find it more or less interesting that it was restricted to Large, and Not Large or Medium?

I thought ordnance pods was large or medium? I haven't actually gotten to look at the physical cards yet though.

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

On that note - do you find it more or less interesting that it was restricted to Large, and Not Large or Medium?

Oh good, I forgot I could take it on the Vic I, one of the worst ships in the game. So yea, essentially it's restricted to large ships.

Just now, draco193 said:

I thought ordnance pods was large or medium? I haven't actually gotten to look at the physical cards yet though.

It is-!

Oh my, I got mixed up with Strategic Advisor?

my total bad.

1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

Oh good, I forgot I could take it on the Vic I, one of the worst ships in the game. So yea, essentially it's restricted to large ships.

Well, it was more... if it had been restricted to large only, someone would eventually mention a faster medium ordnance boat for the Imperials, since you have large and Small’s....

kind of like the mythical rebel medium ion boat - it seems to be missing.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

Well, it was more... if it had been restricted to large only, someone would eventually mention a faster medium ordnance boat for the Imperials, since you have large and Small’s....

kind of like the mythical rebel medium ion boat - it seems to be missing.

Maybe. Is there design space for another medium Imp ship with an ordnance slot? I think the Vic and AF are the largest restrictive elements of the game. They both have a nice suite of upgrade slots, tons of shields, high squad and repair values, and decent dice all for 70/80 points.

How do you fit another ship around that? We have the Quasar which focuses on squads, so perhaps something focused on anti-ship. But Demo already comes out to 75 points with OE and APT, so do you want to encroach on that? And the Kuat is there for 112. However, if we remove both Vics, there is a nice gap that can be filled.

The OP medium/large hurts the Rebels more than Imps. I want to take OP on HHs. But the Raider prevents that because it has a native 2 black AA, and 2 titles that mess squads up. Giving a Kallus OE Raider 3 attacks on a single squad is issue.

I could see a Rebel medium ship that is ordnance focused and the variant being ion focused, and then OP could find a new home.

1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

Maybe. Is there design space for another medium Imp ship with an ordnance slot? I think the Vic and AF are the largest restrictive elements of the game. They both have a nice suite of upgrade slots, tons of shields, high squad and repair values, and decent dice all for 70/80 points.

How do you fit another ship around that? We have the Quasar which focuses on squads, so perhaps something focused on anti-ship. But Demo already comes out to 75 points with OE and APT, so do you want to encroach on that? And the Kuat is there for 112. However, if we remove both Vics, there is a nice gap that can be filled.

The OP medium/large hurts the Rebels more than Imps. I want to take OP on HHs. But the Raider prevents that because it has a native 2 black AA, and 2 titles that mess squads up. Giving a Kallus OE Raider 3 attacks on a single squad is issue.

I could see a Rebel medium ship that is ordnance focused and the variant being ion focused, and then OP could find a new home.

Yeah I'm sure they'll figure it out (they need us buying ships after all!) but it is getting tighter and tighter in the design space. Rebels definitely need some medium anything really. What do imps need though? And the small ships are jam packed on both sides.

Remove carrier capability from it, and keep it lacking support as well.

Letvit native 3, but without ET or Demo, it’s already going to play different to a glad... without squad, it’s going to fill that other end of the Carrier-Generslist-Gunboat line that we don’t have right now.

Now, as a good fit, I don’t know... or specifics... but I think there is a hole there in potentislnin the end.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

Remove carrier capability from it, and keep it lacking support as well.

Letvit native 3, but without ET or Demo, it’s already going to play different to a glad... without squad, it’s going to fill that other end of the Carrier-Generslist-Gunboat line that we don’t have right now.

Now, as a good fit, I don’t know... or specifics... but I think there is a hole there in potentislnin the end.

I agree you can do something there, but the moment you say speed 3, it's going to be better than the Vic I unless you really reduce the amount of dice it has.

4 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Yeah I'm sure they'll figure it out (they need us buying ships after all!) but it is getting tighter and tighter in the design space. Rebels definitely need some medium anything really. What do imps need though? And the small ships are jam packed on both sides.

Imps need a different large ship. Not front arc focused. Rebels have Liberty and Home One for 2 different styles of play, and now the 75 which combines them. Imps need more broad side cruisers, which perhaps a medium ordnance ship could do, similar to the MC30.

12 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I actually don't find Yavaris to be a design restriction. What Yavaris does is nothing spectacular. You could use an MC80 and 6 B-Wings to sextuple your way to victory, AND the squads get to move. Yavaris just makes it cheaper. That said, I think Yavaris would need to be nerfed to include all movement a squad makes in a round instead of just during the activation.

I think your argument that throwing 6 b's in one activation is the same as throwing 3x2 is a red herring. It's not the same when the 3 squads you are tapping are Keyan, Ten, and Luke. Also, it's not "a little cheaper" it's about half the cost of the MC80C and 6 B's.

Yavaris absolutely limits design space. Or should I say, it SHOULD have limited design space. The fact rebels continued to get excellent aces after it was in existence is part of the reason you simply don't run rebel squadrons without Yavaris and the named bros unless you are deliberately handicapping yourself for thematic or other reasons. There has still not been a sufficient fix to this.

In the general topic of cards that limit design space I think the above are all accurate. We are getting to the point in the game where it is becoming painfully obvious where the developers are having to tiptoe around certain upgrades. Titles especially are the ones that break the game and cause problems.

No new ship to ship crit effect ordnance since wave 2? APT's are getting worn out, but it's hard to make a good new one without it skewing on Demo or Admonition.

Gauntlets don't need rogue, but they also can't benefit from Sloane so they get it.

Though it's early, I would say that Pryce, Bail and Strat Advisor absolutely create a design limitation because they smash the core foundation of the game. In this way, ships that want first for rebels and last for imperials will need to be scrutinized, and in general their ubiquity will limit what the future holds for officers. If they make a new officer strong enough to make it worth while to run them over Pryce/Bail/SAD, then it would largely power creep most existing officers to the shelves.

1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

I agree you can do something there, but the moment you say speed 3, it's going to be better than the Vic I unless you really reduce the amount of dice it has.

Imps need a different large ship. Not front arc focused. Rebels have Liberty and Home One for 2 different styles of play, and now the 75 which combines them. Imps need more broad side cruisers, which perhaps a medium ordnance ship could do, similar to the MC30.

You’ve got tour own solution there - either reduce its dice or make it more expensive than a Vic 1

8 minutes ago, Darth Veggie said:

I think they have even lost the memo on Avenger as well when they made Boarding Troopers

Not so much.

BTA requires several things all together that you can actively counterplay around. It's limited to speed 3 with a massive base, so it's difficult if not impossible to escape enemy firing arcs on the way in or out. It's REALLY EASY to see coming for the same reason even if it might be difficult to stop, so you can set traps for it with your squadrons and other ships. If you aren't flying the Kuat Refit, your BT won't turn off more than 2 defense tokens and if you're not, you don't have rerolls out the side arc unless you brought Vader of a CF token.

The cheapest BTA you can run with no other upgrades is 118 points just for the hull, Boarding Troopers and Avenger title.

It's a powerful ship, but you pay through the nose for it and it has obvious weaknesses that can be exploited ruthlessly. It's far from the most egregious upgrade available.

33 minutes ago, Tiberius the Killer said:

It annoys me greatly that Gunnery teams and Engine techs seem to hog most of their respective slots. Which really sucks, because I'd love to have a MC80C with Flight controllers, but Ackbar and Gunnery teams has ruined that dream. And also it is so frustrating the the Pelta is speed 2... **** you engine techs!

I agree that an Command MC80 with Flight Controllers would be fun, but it would be broken with Gunnery Teams. Similarly, there are support teams that would be fine on most ships but Engine Techs just breaks them. I wouldn't be surprised to see an upgrade at some point that opens up crew upgrade slots but with a point limit so the designers don't need to bend themselves in half to avoid the more expensive, more powerful upgrades that could go into those slots. For example, something like:

Expanded Crew Quarters
Offensive retrofit
You may equip a support crew or weapon team upgrade to this ship that costs 6 points or less, paying full cost.

I honestly don't want to have the thread devolve into discussion of that specific type of card, but it would offer an "out" for circumstances like the one you're looking for. Would also allow for some of the more fundamental upgrades (like Gunnery Team) to be used alongside some of the more niche upgrades (like Sensor Team).

1 hour ago, shmitty said:

I was having a discussion about Rhymer that got me thinking. I think it was @Snipafist that felt his nerf was way too harsh. I can't argue that too much as he has more or less disappeared since the nerf. I still think it can be good in the long run, IF the Imperials get some new bomber options that they couldn't have had before. Rhymer was the reason the Imperials couldn't have a squadron like B-Wings or even Scurrgs. Now, with the nerf I think there is room in the game for that.

So, what other ships, admirals, or upgrades do you think really restrict the designers?

My list:

• Ackbar - Every Rebel ship has to consider how strong they would be with the trapman. It's why the Rebels haven't seen a broadside ship since Wave 2, although the Armored Cruiser is close.
• Engine Techs - Any ship that gets a Support Team has to consider this upgrade. It's why the Pelta is speed 2 I think. It really restricts which ships can get Support Teams.
• Sloane - She is going to restrict future Imperial Squadron options.

Yavaris + T(oryn) F(arr)

APT - It's 5 points, it deals automatic faceup damage and the crit icon still adds one damage.
There is pretty much no reason to take other Ordnance slot cards unless you're doing something very specific or a specific ship doing something (again) specific. I honestly feel like APT should of been 7 points and ACM should of been 5.

I think that's why we haven't seen much change in Ordnance slot cards besides specific cards that do specific things, APT is already the best card at the right price over anything else.

Another to add to the list could be TRCs. Not as much since the nerf, but they are certainly a consideration for a ship that gets Evades and red dice.

9 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I agree that an Command MC80 with Flight Controllers would be fun, but it would be broken with Gunnery Teams. Similarly, there are support teams that would be fine on most ships but Engine Techs just breaks them. I wouldn't be surprised to see an upgrade at some point that opens up crew upgrade slots but with a point limit so the designers don't need to bend themselves in half to avoid the more expensive, more powerful upgrades that could go into those slots. For example, something like:

Expanded Crew Quarters
Offensive retrofit
You may equip a support crew or weapon team upgrade to this ship that costs 6 points or less, paying full cost.

I honestly don't want to have the thread devolve into discussion of that specific type of card, but it would offer an "out" for circumstances like the one you're looking for. Would also allow for some of the more fundamental upgrades (like Gunnery Team) to be used alongside some of the more niche upgrades (like Sensor Team).

I like this idea over say errata to open up those slots a bit.

Just now, Karneck said:

APT - It's 5 points, it deals automatic upmage and the crit icon still gives another damage.
There is pretty much no reason to take other Ordnance slot cards unless you're doing something very specific or a specific ship doing something (again) specific. I honestly feel like APT should of been 7 points and ACM should of been 5.

APT would be easily fixed if it exhausted with use. ACMs though are better in a meta with lots of Large ships.

Design space limiters:

1)Proliferation of upgrades. There is a certain point where you start running out of ways to manipulate existing game mechanics and must invent new mechanics.

2)Demolisher - limits all black crit and ordnance oriented upgrades. Anything that comes out for ordnance must now be minimal one-shots, prohibitively expensive, or restricted to ship sizes. Demolisher can too easily abuse any good al around card

3) Avenger - any defense token exhaust/spend mechanic is now limited because of just how **** powerful this title is. It is actually worse than Demolisher in this respect as Avenger can take advantage of friendly ships/squads having an exhaust/spend. So size limiting doesn’t work. I doubt we see a new exhaust/spend mechanic beyond Sloane and Suppressor for Imperials. It’ll now only be Rebel specific unless a nerf happens. I don’t think Avenger is inherently OP, but nerfing it to “the defender can only spend one exhausted defense token” makes Avenger still awesome but not ubiquitous and costed comparably to Mon Karren (which nobody really complains about) and free up some defense token exhaust/spend design space.

Yavaris - This stops Rebels from getting a Decimator equivalent. It forces a cap, almost regardless of points, on how much damage a single Rebel squad can do in one shot.