6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Hi pot, I'm kettle.

Because they all coexisted at the same time? Otherwise this comparison would be incredibly disingenuous. Oh, wait...

At this point you're just wasting my time, so I might as well waste yours.

They didn't all coexist at the exact same time, but each version had minimum one competitor (usually several). Which you know, but are choosing to ignore for the sake of being rude.

I think this conversation has run its course. Cheers!

2 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

They didn't all coexist at the exact same time, but each version had minimum one competitor (usually several). Which you know, but are choosing to ignore for the sake of being rude.

Thanks for making my point. That's why I mentioned two. Because there is usually a better one and one contender. That also means I didn't ignore it, and yet you think you get to call me rude. Funny how that works, huh?

Ok, let’s see what the guys are talking about tonight......”change/nerf.....”

8 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Oh look, another Laser Brained Nerf Herder making a cry thread about __pilot skill________________.

I’ve had my fill of “Nerf Calls”. Just play the game people.

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Not all.

Imps still don't.

Well, aside from the character who pilots 2 different ships and has a crew card that all can drop up to 2 ships per game to PS 0 , as well as damage them underneath shields.

But aside from their ways of dropping pilots to 0, they definitely don't have ways to drop PS to 0.

1 hour ago, Scum4Life said:

The alternative route is to do away with adaptability and VI. If you don't think messing with pilot skill should exist, however I find being able to pilot skill match 3 ships with originally different pilot skills infilled useful in my games, hence if VI is a thing why not take that concept further, and open up new avenues and potential builds of ships.

Hence I think cap ps at ten, add new epts that cost more and increase ps more.

I agree, although 10 vs. 11, who cares? But I do agree the whole concept should be revamped in some way that is more complex than +2 for 1 point and +1 for 0.

You know, I like synergies and using EPTs that work well with pilot abilities so I only use VI rarely. I’d rather use some silly build like Marksmanship Stele TIE/D or what have you. VI is so boring but PS 11 Vader EU is just so iconic.

Its the way the game is built. It will take a 2.0 to change things now,

8 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Its the way the game is built. It will take a 2.0 to change things now,

I disagree with your statement of opinion. X-Wing is ever evolving with the MANY FAQs. The evidence this game can and does change is in every FAQ.

8 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

... Except that aggressive bids means that lists geared for efficiency gain more and more favorability as the top PS lists bid lower and lower. There's a natural balance that 1-2 points invested in boosting PS doesn't carry.

Oh, so you want rock/paper/scissors balance? High PS with bid wins vs High PS, High PS wins vs full 100 pts list, full 100 pts list wins vs High PS with bid. Tell me in what way is it better than the current system? Because I don't see it.
Also, do you have any proof of your ideas or are you just taking arguments out from thin air? Because historically there was one instance where two TIE Phantoms just flew on colossal bid and were completely fine. What is more, despite agressive bid they were destroying things left and right.

21 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

Oh, so you want rock/paper/scissors balance? High PS with bid wins vs High PS, High PS wins vs full 100 pts list, full 100 pts list wins vs High PS with bid. Tell me in what way is it better than the current system? Because I don't see it.
Also, do you have any proof of your ideas or are you just taking arguments out from thin air? Because historically there was one instance where two TIE Phantoms just flew on colossal bid and were completely fine. What is more, despite agressive bid they were destroying things left and right.

That should only be RPS in the extremes, which should themselves be limited because it's entirely within the player's control how much they want to bid/base their list around the bid. If bidding were that amazing, we'd already see super aggressive bids, but things have stayed pretty reasonable. Certain list archetypes will benefit more from bids, but they themselves are vulnerable to autodamage effects and will need more beef to maintain staying power.

In the days of double-phantom domination, there were fewer good high PS ships/pilots for them to contend with and they were decloaking after other ships had already moved while spitting 8-10 modded reds between them. Totally different landscape.

6 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

That should only be RPS in the extremes, which should themselves be limited because it's entirely within the player's control how much they want to bid/base their list around the bid. If bidding were that amazing, we'd already see super aggressive bids, but things have stayed pretty reasonable.

So you just prove my point and contradicted yours. Because as you yourself admitted overextrended bids are not a problem. Thus it is not as much important to move last/shoot first. If it would be such a crunch people would use those bids in current meta, and as you noticed it is not the case. So PS is not a problem.

1 minute ago, Embir82 said:

So you just prove my point and contradicted yours. Because as you yourself admitted overextrended bids are not a problem. Thus it is not as much important to move last/shoot first. If it would be such a crunch people would use those bids in current meta, and as you noticed it is not the case. So PS is not a problem.

Well no, no I didn't. As it currently stands, there are very few pilots that can get to PS11, and three of them lose a ton of needed efficiency to get up that high (Fel, Kylo, Han), so the few ships at PS11 are able to warp the rest of the field pretty easily. Few ships bother getting to PS10, and the ones that do bump themselves up there do so to hard-counter ships in the PS8-9 range that would otherwise give them issues. As I stated repeatedly to another poster in this thread, generally playing at even PS is manageable because you have advantages to leverage and don't get PS killed, which makes initiative bids less important outside of edge cases.

The issue with the current PS wars isn't that the state of the game isn't functional, it's that it limits variety and what ships can see the field because too many ships fall on the wrong side of the PS Pass/Fail and thus just aren't taken. It also limits upgrade choices among the top PS pilots that do see play. A cap at 9 would be a quality of life improvement, not a needed balance improvement.

19 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Well no, no I didn't. As it currently stands, there are very few pilots that can get to PS11, and three of them lose a ton of needed efficiency to get up that high (Fel, Kylo, Han), so the few ships at PS11 are able to warp the rest of the field pretty easily. Few ships bother getting to PS10, and the ones that do bump themselves up there do so to hard-counter ships in the PS8-9 range that would otherwise give them issues. As I stated repeatedly to another poster in this thread, generally playing at even PS is manageable because you have advantages to leverage and don't get PS killed, which makes initiative bids less important outside of edge cases.

Then tell me how did it happen that in SOS tournament in Poland there were tons of lists at PS 8, PS 5 or even simple generics that made the cut and had good results? For example, hungarian player get into top 4 with totally generic list where highest PS was 5. I get into TOP 8 and I lost against list that had PS at 9,8 and 4, mind you I had Poe at 11.
Also good luck with having fun playing against Kylo Ren with Advanced Sensors and PtL in meta hard capped at PS 9.

14 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

The issue with the current PS wars isn't that the state of the game isn't functional, it's that it limits variety and what ships can see the field because too many ships fall on the wrong side of the PS Pass/Fail and thus just aren't taken. It also limits upgrade choices among the top PS pilots that do see play. A cap at 9 would be a quality of life improvement, not a needed balance improvement.

Hard cap will not change anything, there won't be more variety. After some time optimal combos will emerge and nerf-herders brigade will cry for another nerf in the name of variability or whatever else's.
A cap at 9 would be quality of life improvement only for you, because PS situation at the current state is perfectly fine for me.

1 minute ago, Embir82 said:

Then tell me how did it happen that in SOS tournament in Poland there were tons of lists at PS 8, PS 5 or even simple generics that made the cut and had good results? For example, hungarian player get into top 4 with totally generic list where highest PS was 5. I get into TOP 8 and I lost against list that had PS at 9,8 and 4, mind you I had Poe at 11.
Also good luck with having fun playing against Kylo Ren with Advanced Sensors and PtL in meta hard capped at PS 9.

Hard cap will not change anything, there won't be more variety. After some time optimal combos will emerge and nerf-herders brigade will cry for another nerf in the name of variability or whatever else's.
A cap at 9 would be quality of life improvement only for you, because PS situation at the current state is perfectly fine for me.

Why is your Poe at 11, instead of being at 10 for 2 points cheaper?

Nothing about anything I've said means that PS 1-8 ships can't compete. I tend to run efficient generics myself. That doesn't make PS10 Nym single-handedly shutting down an entire archetype for an extended period of time a positive thing for the game.

5 minutes ago, RampancyTW said:

Nothing about anything I've said means that PS 1-8 ships can't compete.

There, you have your answer. There is no point in changing PS rules because there are no problem.

15 hours ago, FrozenPhyro said:

I have thought about this as well. And would agree, but the execution should be different. If you are going to do VI, you should also do Adaptability as well.

VI should read "Increase your pilot skill value by 2 (to a maximum of 9)".

Adaptability (Increase) should read "Increase your pilot skill value by 1 (to a maximum of 9)".

SOLD!

Easy fix with no discrimination against any ship, pilot or faction.

if players want to then build with a big initiative bid that's fine with me less I have to kill

1 hour ago, RampancyTW said:

If bidding were that amazing, we'd already see super aggressive bids

You really don‘t understand oO

Currently, bids can only be „that amazing“ for 12 pilots with VI (or Thweek, but he‘s a special case). And most of them do not benefit as much if they have to pay the opportunity cost of VI. Soontir, Kylo, FangFenn, Talonbane, Dengar, both Hans, and Wedge all need their EPT to do something, and they undoubtedly prefer to pay by choosing a different squadmate and paying a large bid. Vader, QD (if used with missiles!), Poe, SheathipedeFenn don‘t care as much about their EPT. Vader because he has free and better PTL, Poe because he has also extra actions by AO, and QD wants to fire missiles at PS11. And by the way, ExpertiseQD has a significantly higher winrate in this regional season, telling us that while VI is most common at 74%, it is also not the best choice and QD pays extra for taking it. Splitting the data into VI QD with or without harpoons confirms that: ExpertiseQD > VIpoonQD > VIQD. The people taking VI on QD without a Harpoon did not understand why VI is taken in the first place, and their results reflect that.

Everyone else (the 66 remaining PS7-8 with VI, or 9 with adaptability) has the potential problem of running into a PS11 pilot and completely waste the bid. Not to mention that 3-6pt bids are already a thing, and that‘s when the field is limited to those 12 pilots. Of which, as mentioned, only four don‘t lose as much by taking VI.

That system is vastly superior to 78 potential pilots*. There are enough that don‘t care as much about their EPT slot, similar to Vader, QD, Poe and Fenn. For example PS8 Poe... your change will just make the currently pretty widespread Poe better because cheaper at 38/40pt depending on the droid, compared to current 41/43pt.

The current state does not limit variety because of PS of these 4 pilots. The current state limits variety because 2 of them can equip Harpoons, and one can get rid of Harpoons before they are shot. High PS is a symptom, not the cause. The cause is red/green dice creep specifically, and power creep in general.

edit: *the actual number is a bit lower due to pilots like Miranda or Crimsonleader not being able to take an EPT.

VI as an upgrade card isn't the problem, its prevalence is a symptom.

Why is VI being used in preference to other EPTs when those alternatives are actually better for quite a lot of pilots?

PS10 Nym and PS11 Fenn bug. Nym (and the Scurrg generally) shouldn't have an EPT at all (see all the other heavy bombers and compare) and Fenn's annoying co-ordinate effectively giving the Ghost a PS11 reposition seems to have overlooked during play-testing. If it'd been spotted, I like to think that they'd either have removed the slot from the sheathipede pilots or dropped Fenn down to 7.

Take those 2 pilots away: does the meta change?

5 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Lol. That’s what she said.

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

You really don‘t understand oO

5 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

Well no, no I didn't. As it currently stands, there are very few pilots that can get to PS11, and three of them lose a ton of needed efficiency to get up that high (Fel, Kylo, Han), so the few ships at PS11 are able to warp the rest of the field pretty easily. Few ships bother getting to PS10, and the ones that do bump themselves up there do so to hard-counter ships in the PS8-9 range that would otherwise give them issues. As I stated repeatedly to another poster in this thread, generally playing at even PS is manageable because you have advantages to leverage and don't get PS killed, which makes initiative bids less important outside of edge cases.

I understand fully.

Quit being toxic.

I think you are tackling the problem in the wrong angle.

Why there is a PS war? is it because people just want to shoot first? oooooooooor? the benefit of perfect gamestate information is an order of magnitude better for bombs and arc dodging, hmm? You don't need to predict your opponent if you can see exactly where their ships are.

Its the same reason they nerf decloak in your PS.

Now, some ships with definitive weakeness for sure may deserve to do get that advantage... but for some... well, its borderline impossible to beat if your opponent is not an eggplant.

If you cap at PS 9, Nym still can have it, and you got to have a bid, for him to not eat your aces with auto damage.
Also, I bet darth vader NICHE is that because he can go to ps 10/11 (and he can use harppoons too, ofc)

If you cap at PS8, ok, now nym can use other Elite upgrades, soontir, kylo, quickdraw, scum fen rau, talon bane cobra (lol) escape. but your phantom to dead to han solo / dengar (or even rey / chirpy and if your bid is not enough)
Rebel Fen rau still will coordinate the ghost out of arc.

I wonder what PS8 ships will get a spot at the light if that was the case?

19 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

PS wars cost more than bidding wars. What are you talking about?

I guess something I have absolutely no knowledge about and have an opinion that differs greatly from you. But conversely, I don't know what your opinion is on the subject. Please explain to me what you mean by "PS wars cost more than biding wars" so I can better understand your opinion on the matter. You are quite the intelligent poster and i'd like your bent explained. Thanks!

51 minutes ago, DicesonFire said:

I think you are tackling the problem in the wrong angle.

Why there is a PS war? is it because people just want to shoot first? oooooooooor? the benefit of perfect gamestate information is an order of magnitude better for bombs and arc dodging, hmm? You don't need to predict your opponent if you can see exactly where their ships are.

Its the same reason they nerf decloak in your PS.

Now, some ships with definitive weakeness for sure may deserve to do get that advantage... but for some... well, its borderline impossible to beat if your opponent is not an eggplant.

If you cap at PS 9, Nym still can have it, and you got to have a bid, for him to not eat your aces with auto damage.
Also, I bet darth vader NICHE is that because he can go to ps 10/11 (and he can use harppoons too, ofc)

If you cap at PS8, ok, now nym can use other Elite upgrades, soontir, kylo, quickdraw, scum fen rau, talon bane cobra (lol) escape. but your phantom to dead to han solo / dengar (or even rey / chirpy and if your bid is not enough)
Rebel Fen rau still will coordinate the ghost out of arc.

I wonder what PS8 ships will get a spot at the light if that was the case?

It's both. Perfect info + PS kills. Simulfire means that even with a bid you have to spend actions defensively unless you've outflown your opponent. Nym shut down aces because he could pop them before they hit back. ABT/AccC cheese is much less appealing when you eat a 4-die shot every time you do it.

8 hours ago, Embir82 said:

Hard cap will not change anything, there won't be more variety. After some time optimal combos will emerge and nerf-herders brigade will cry for another nerf in the name of variability or whatever else's.

Agreed. You are either playing for "fun," and there is all the variety in the world because you don't care, or you are playing to "win," and there will only be a few optimized builds. The apex predators.

18 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Removing higher PS means removing their natural predators.

OTOH, this makes the game sound like it is an evolutionary process. Which it very much is not. It is a managed farm with pesticides (nerfs) and GMOs (new waves). And like any managed system, it is highly likely to experience wild and unexpected swings when poisons kill more than planned and introductory species destroy swaths of weaker species.

So, you can start spraying all the PS pesticide you want, but in the end:

16 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

And that lands us all at pretty much the exact same space: ships have a best build and no variety. But with a new twist: players have to spend huge amounts of points on initiative instead of cool upgrades and list flexibility, because their chosen ships lose a lot of worth otherwise and become unplayable.

it will be the same dang farm, with this year's prize-winning bull, not some miraculously diverse rain forest. Want diversity?? Get off the farm and stop worrying about the market price of your goods.

15 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

Just gonna throw this out there as an actionable concept rather than just arguing about how bad the pitfalls of this may or may not be:

Why don’t we all (who agree that this would be a good idea) get people in our local groups to test it out. Play with it casually, even with some local tournaments. Playtest it for FF, and if it gains traction, it’s much more likely to come about officially than if they just hear us whining about it. ✌️

^This. Just once I'd like to see someone actually playtest their idea on how to fix the game before claiming they've got it sorted out. Thought experiments are great, but "hey, I've tried this out" would be so much better.