Better to resist possession, not necessarily stronger. Being good at shooting things doesn't make you a sniper, you should be patient enough to wait for hours before shooting and don't loose your accuracy during this time. In fact, it come way before being good at shooting in the sniper training. Psyker primaris should be able to withstand the stress of a battle and still use their psychic power, it is more important than their raw capacity. Imperial commanders don't need powerful psykers that explode as soon as there are laser beams in the air, they need psykers with enough composure to keep supporting the troops during a fight. There are probably psyker primaris stronger than astropaths, but weaker to.

Being fit to the role doesn't mean being the best in one of its aspects.

As far as the argument between whether Astropaths can use battlefield psyker powers I would say no. Personal opinion is that an Astropath's 'psychic potential' is modified on a base level by the process of soul binding, limiting the growth and usage of their talents to narrowly confined constraints. Sanctioned psykers have more freedom of development and have had less constraint placed on them. These constraints are esstially techno-mystical modifications to their base psychi pattern or 'soul'. Thus unless the individual is too strong for the restraint or they have a greater power intervene, those so modified by either soul binding or sanctioning are simply unable to progress further in the development of their powers. An argument could be stated that the process not only protects the imperium from uncontroled power of the unsanctioned, but also to prevent the emergence of those psykers with both the power AND the will to develop into a more adanced state that could threaten the belief structure of the imperium itself (esentially the emergence of another being with the power of the emporer.

However the main topic was the conversion of DH powers to RT rules instead of using DH rules. I find the RT rules more fluid and better written than the original psyker rules and would prefer the powers converted. This boils down to the essentail RP dilemma, are the rules seperate from or part and parcel with the story elements. Could you run WH40K in say d20 3.5 or GURPS and still have the same experience. This is left to individual opinion but as for myself, I fully intend to about a psy system more in line with RT than DH as I find the RT system more understandable, less cluttered, and more in line with the base game mechanic of the system (roll under base XX%, modifie base percent up or down via circumstance, count difference between roll and XX% as degrees of success or failure by degrees of 10).

NOTE: The above statement relating to story is from the perspective of one whose total WH40k experience is the RPG line and the Dawn of War computer games.

Thank you for reading.

I would also like to point out that right in the core RT rulebook Psy section, there is a sidebar suggesting that if you wanted to you could do just this, and convert the DH powers to the RT system. Written by FFG themselves and put in the book, who'd of thunk it? It's not Heresy!

Alexis

*smiles*

Cailieg said:

I don't think anyone ever said they can't do it, just that Astropaths can't use them.

I honestly feel that the psycher rules are too safe for sanctioned psychers...

I think they are fine for the Astropaths and navigators I suppose, but it was always supposed to be a danger and a fear to use and I don't see that in RT.

JMTC

Netherek said:

It's a really really fine balancing act, between the two extremes of "they should be dangerous to use" and "they should be useful". The same issue exists with Warp Travel - it can't be so dangerous that nobody would consider using it, and it's got to be reliable enough to allow the empire that is built upon those things to exist.

Astropaths are essential to the continued existence of the Imperium - that is, the Imperium literally could not function as a single political entity (indeed, it would struggle to function properly as a small-scale military one, as Astropathic communication is significantly faster than technological methods, and thus is invaluable when sending messages from one end of a star system to the other, such as to warn about impending invasion or coordinate fleet movements over interplanetary distances) without Astropaths.

Thus, if Astropaths have a significant chance of simply exploding or being possessed by a Daemon whenever they use their powers, then that is too great a risk to use them regularly, yet we know that the Imperium does - Astropaths are a common sight upon most worlds in the Imperium, used not just for important government and military matters, but also for trade and more local matters.

|MO, background-wise, the issue revolves around the idea that people are taught to fear and hate psykers because they're a risk to humanity... the problem with that notion is that it doesn't account for the sanctioned ones - an untrained witch-on-the-street is extremely dangerous, having little to no control and little to no external scrutiny, and lacks the training, the hard-learned mental discipline and sheer force of will to protect himself from the horrors of the Warp.

The whole point of Sanctioned Psykers is that they're picked from amongst the rare ones who have the strength of mind enough to hold off the terrors of the Immaterium, while Astropaths are psychically bonded with the Emperor to ward them from the worst the Warp has to offer - they are, by the standards of psykers, safe. If they weren't, the Imperium wouldn't be using them...

Eisenhorn was a sanctioned psyker and feared using his abilities to an extent. If I recall correctly he accidently summoned a warp entity on a rogue trader vessal.

Any way, I don't see why the two can't sit side by side, though if I had to choose one I'd go with the DH setup.

On the topic of Astra Telepathica, I would just like to point everyone to this book:

www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer-40000/Enforcer.html

The third book in this omnibus, the main character (Shira Calpurnia) is investigating a murder case involving an astro-path, and it paints a really interesting picture of what goes on in their inner sanctum! Highly recommended.

I've thought of another reason I have issues with the RT style psychic powers, the powers are all just as simple to get off. There is nothing that makes the powers more difficult. Powers should have different difficulties, it's something that was in DH and WHRPv2 but is missing from RT.

With all the complaints about power level of psykers, this screams for more abuse....

Just to add to my growing concerns, since RT powers are just simple willpower test, you can spend a fate if you roll doubles just to avoid the perils of the warp. This further midigates the threat and balancing factor to the most powerful of classes. Perils are so easily managed in RT that even unsanctioned psykers have little to fear.

Thats not Warhammer.

If you want safe Psykers, go with Star Wars.

Netherek said:

Hey, if you have a Fate Point to spend then go for it. It's not like you might need it to keep from getting a bolter round through the brainpan, or to keep from being decapitated by a power axe...

RT psykers are relatively safe, but there is still an element of risk. Of course, RT psykers are also less awe-inspiring in their capabilities, so the balance of risk has to be adjusted. I find the RT version preferable to the DH system where no psyker is likely to live more than a few sessions with even moderate use of their powers until they get Favoured by the Warp (Rank 6 or Rank 8, depending on career path). Even if they live, they likely have had to burn a good chunk of Fate Points, making them quite vulnerable to an unlucky roll (the ultimate unexpected killer in this system).

Netherek said:

Push is not safe. And the player will usually only Push when it is really required, like when in the finale of a mission and they are facing the big baddie. It is appropriate to have perils of the warp when the fight is dangerous and riscy.

It is an anti-climax to have a demon spawn when the psyker is just trying to turn on his aura of awesomeness after breakfast in the morning.

So I think the RT rules better support the story telling.

However, I can see that some people would find great fun in the unpredictability of the DH rules. Each to his own.

Look, RT is just plain safe to spam psychic powers.

You can fetter force shards all day, or dominate. You shouldn't be able to. These are high level abilities and should have risk in their use. In RT you don't even risk possession, which you should as it's part of setting.

Psychics are not supposed to be throwing their power about will and nil for breakfast, so he deserves daemonic retribution if he does.

Here's the thing, and maybe I come from a different generation where we expect to lose characters as part of a campaign but we do our best to make our demise memorable. Continue the campaign, now they have to pick up from the last groups failure. Once it happens, your psyker will start actually behaving like one (fearing his one abilities) and the party will behave as they should (ready to kill their psyker companion). That's the nature of the beast, the way it was meant to be.

Since I don't have my DH book handy, I'm not going to go into detail on how Possession isn't necessarily a TPK, until I get it back.

Netherek said:

You can. You won't necessarily get anywhere with them, particularly if you're trying to use several in that way all at once (each successive power sustained reduces the effective psy rating of all the powers being sustained).

That's what the Unfettered and Push levels are for - more power and greater chance of success, but greater risk. If you keep encountering psykers that only Fetter their powers, then either you've got some really, really potent psykers around, or they're not being tested hard enough by the situations they encounter.

Netherek said:

It's a common misconception that every psyker is at constant and significant risk from daemonic possession... if that were the case, then they'd be too dangerous to use at all. The psykers who are a risk to the Imperium in the overwhelming majority of cases are unsanctioned, untrained ones who lack the mental strength or Emperor-given fortitude to withstand the horrors of the Warp... Astropaths and other Sanctioned Psykers (as well as beings like Eldar psykers) are not in that group, but are rather in the 'mostly safe, unless they really push their luck' category.

Netherek said:

But psykers are also supposed to be able to actually use their powers. Letting someone play a psyker, and then telling them that there's a good chance that character will self-destruct just because they use the powers their entire character is based around... well, it's no different from constantly staging combats in promethium refineries such that a single stray shot from the Arch-Militant's bolter or the Rogue Trader's plasma pistol will cause a massive explosion and a raging inferno.

Characters should have the opportunity to use the abilities that define them, without constantly being terrified that those abilities will result in terrible things happening to them.

It's a common misconception that every psyker is at constant and significant risk from daemonic possession... if that were the case, then they'd be too dangerous to use at all. The psykers who are a risk to the Imperium in the overwhelming majority of cases are unsanctioned, untrained ones who lack the mental strength or Emperor-given fortitude to withstand the horrors of the Warp... Astropaths and other Sanctioned Psykers (as well as beings like Eldar psykers) are not in that group, but are rather in the 'mostly safe, unless they really push their luck' category.

I'd like to interject that not all things that are as they should be in the fluff should be playable. It seems to me that an interpretation of an archetype that requires them to be awesome beyond what the other playable character types are capable of and safe perhaps indicates that that particular archetype shouldn't be a playable character, not that one character class should overshadow the others.

Now, as I'm not too well read in the RT psychic powers I'm not sure that's the case with RT psykers. It certainly is in DH but there they at least have phenomena to restrain them from stealing the spotlight in every scene.

I wouldn't let someone play a space marine from DW in RT, not because they are represented wrong but because having one guy play a demigod while the others get to roll up what in comparison is mooks.

Netherek said:

Telling other players that their playstyle is wrong, or even telling the guys that wrote the book that their rules are wrong, doesn't mean you're right. The only "way it was meant to be" that matters is what works for your group at your table. Anything else is beyond your control, so just let it go. Make up some house rules and share them if you like, but don't bother with the shoe-banging.

To tell someone that they shouldn't tell others what to do seems somewhat ironic, neh? Discussing various interpretations of the rules and background is what these forums are for.

Or to put it in slightly different words. Telling people that telling people they're wrong is wrong doesn't mean you're right. Now, round three of recursive "you're doing it wrong" anyone?

No need for another round. You're just trolling now.

Quote N0-1_H3r3 But psykers are also supposed to be able to actually use their powers. Letting someone play a psyker, and then telling them that there's a good chance that character will self-destruct just because they use the powers their entire character is based around... well, it's no different from constantly staging combats in promethium refineries such that a single stray shot from the Arch-Militant's bolter or the Rogue Trader's plasma pistol will cause a massive explosion and a raging inferno.

Characters should have the opportunity to use the abilities that define them, without constantly being terrified that those abilities will result in terrible things happening to them .

You do realize that there is less that a .25% that results in his demise, it becomes quite negligible once you add in Favored by the Warp.

In DH the odds go up per die roll but even that isn't all out instant destruction unless the psyker rolls a 00 on the perils table and that's about .025% per die rolled. Again the odds don't take into account Favored by the Warp.

So what does this mean, you have a 1 in 200 chance you will die using your abilities. According to national statics you are more likely to die in a vehicle accident, 1 in 84, and that doesn't stop to many people from driving.

With the power level that Psykers do have, and with all the fluff, they should be conservative with their abilities.

I do like some of what they did, having it a willpower test keeps the psychic powers in line with the rest of the tests in the game, I like how they tied in BS and WS with certain powers over a dependance on WP, and I like how Unnatural Willpower works in RT.

I guess I can see the merit to switching over, though I'd I think I'll probably do some additional house ruling to the Fettering and the powers in general. I'll take some time to look at the other side of things and maybe I can come up with some thing that someone might like to use.

Thinking about the conversion, I'd definately say limit Astropaths to the established Disciplines, and have the others for the rest of the Psykers. I prefer the DH Peril's table, so I'd use that one with two mods.

Have the summon warp daemon to warp entity, giving more freedom to the GM, and I'd have modify Possession to a -20 over a -30 and if he loses that then the daemonhost could in the next round.

I'm considering having double 0's always roll phenomena even when fettering, and an automatic Perils of the Warp when Pushing.

So I can see I missed the boat on this discussion but I was hoping for some clarification, as I don't see it within the thread. Isn't this 'conversion' what is discussed in RT on page 172 in the sidebar?

Largely, but in some cases that doesn't translate well, leading to weaker or more powerful version of powers than they otherwise would be. It also groups Minor Powers into rough disciplines, since those don't exist in Rogue Trader.

3 psychic people walk into a bar. All 3 of them have Psy Rating 4. Which one is an Astropath?

Saying that Bob the Astropath with a Psy Rating of 8 will never be able to learn that Bio-Lighting trick that Bill the Imperial Psyker with a Psy Rating of 2 can do is just plain silly.

The absence of something (in this case, the absence of any canon saying astropaths can learn imperial psyker techniques) does not prove its nonexistence.

No one has ever said "The ground is real" but that doesn't make it not true.

If this were a case in criminal court it would be thrown out due to reasonable doubt. There is no evidence either way that astropaths can or can not learn any disciplines other than telepathy, divination and telekinesis. In fact the only evidence I've seen either way is the blatant fact that the writers of RT put in simple rules to convert DH techniques into RT techniques.

You mean, is it a case of:

A: The rules dont say that i cant fly.

or

B: The rules dont need to spell out how traveling (on foot between two shops in the same city) needs to work.

Imperial Psykers and Astropaths are two completely different levels of psyker - one was powerful enough to control his powers, and so has greater reign over them, and the other required soul binding to control his powers, which in turn restricts him to Astropathic duties. In the entire canon, there's never, from what I've seen, been astropaths throwing around fireballs or lightning - it's always been mental powers, be it telepathy, telekinesis, divination, and the like.

If you don't like it, don't follow the canon - but given that GW have had numerous astropath characters in novels and the fluff in the past, I'm sure they'd have mentioned their ability to cast lightning at their foes before now.