If you have some woods area terrain, do individual trees block los? I'm assuming they do (as does all terrain). However, if you move some trees to allow for placement of minis (as mentioned in the rules ref) you are potentially changing the los for minis near those trees - this could be abused to change terrain to someone's advantage.

So this had me wondering if woods just provide cover and don't affect los (which isn't very realistic though). I know other games have the entire area blocks los rather than individual trees within it which works better imo.

Just wondered what people's thoughts are on this?

good question.
I would house rule it as troops inside the woods can see outside the woods and be seen by troops within a certain distance of the woods
troops inside the woods can see other troops in the woods. Troops on one side of the wood cannot see troops on the other side of the wood.

YMMV

You and your opponent decide before the game whether the woods count as sparse woods (light cover, open movement) or thick woods (heavy cover, difficult movement, impassable to repulsor vehicles), or some other mixture of those traits. The whole area would possess whatever traits you decided to give it - blocking line of sight, for example - with the individual trees being freely removable.

From the RRG:

Quote

This process is quite easy, as players simply need to define the cover type and movement difficulty for each piece of terrain they have selected for the battlefield. This section includes rules for common terrain types, but players are free to expand or modify these rules as needed.

Quote

This section details many of the most commonly available pieces of terrain, but it is by no means comprehensive. Therefore, the rules and tables herein are presented as guidelines rather than hard-and-fast rules. Ultimately, players should decide for themselves what they wish their battlefield to represent, adapting these rules as appropriate for their available terrain.

Quote

The most common type of terrain on the battlefield, area terrain, includes woods, tall grass, rivers, and the ruined shells of blown-out buildings.

This type of terrain is sometimes built into the battlefield itself, but is often represented by a large, flat scenic base dotted with decorative three-dimensional terrain elements (such as trees) that can be removed to accommodate the movement and placement of minis.

It is easy to determine the boundaries of terrain if it is mounted on a base of its own, but some battlefields are more complex. If players wish to delineate an area of terrain that does not have a clear boundary, they may choose a number of terrain pieces and draw an imaginary line around the outer geometry of those terrain (from a top-down perspective) to determine where the area of terrain begins and ends.

I would say trees in general do not block LoS for someone on the outside shooting into the trees terrain (or someone inside shooting out). They simply provide the agreed upon cover.

Now, if the trees are particularly thick and you are looking at a mini beyond the cover, I could see LoS being blocked. Especially a scenario of an elevated unit like a repulsor vehicle of some sort being on the far side of the trees, if sufficiently dense.

27 minutes ago, Hidatom said:

good question.
I would house rule it as troops inside the woods can see outside the woods and be seen by troops within a certain distance of the woods
troops inside the woods can see other troops in the woods. Troops on one side of the wood cannot see troops on the other side of the wood.

YMMV

Yeah, I was thinking of something along these lines. Or a simpler version - just that a unit on one side can not see a unit on the other side. Thematically though I think I'd also have restrictions on shooting into woods from outside too (your limited range idea is a good one).

I'm pretty sure LOS is reciprocal. So if you are shooting through the trees, both the attacker and defender have LOS and gain cover. If you are touching the trees, thus "inside" the trees, you can shoot out of the trees, and only you gain cover.

There shouldn't be a case where you are in the trees, have LOS to an enemy, but they don't have LOS to you. Each terrain has a preset trait and having LOS and your opponent doesn't is not one of those.

2 hours ago, Hidatom said:

good question.
I would house rule it as troops inside the woods can see outside the woods and be seen by troops within a certain distance of the woods
troops inside the woods can see other troops in the woods. Troops on one side of the wood cannot see troops on the other side of the wood.

YMMV

If you read the rules it deals with all of these situations, there is no need for house ruling anything. I've seen a lot of people, in a lot of games, try to "house rule" terrain rules because they either don't understand them or don't like them.

Ultimately, it's your gaming experience, do what you want, but if you ever plan to play in any type of Organized Play event then I highly recommend that you read the rules, play a game, read the rules again, play another game, lather-rinse-repeat. If you never plan on playing anything but Grand Army rules in your basement, then do whatever you want with house rules.

53 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I'm pretty sure LOS is reciprocal. So if you are shooting through the trees, both the attacker and defender have LOS and gain cover. If you are touching the trees, thus "inside" the trees, you can shoot out of the trees, and only you gain cover.

There shouldn't be a case where you are in the trees, have LOS to an enemy, but they don't have LOS to you. Each terrain has a preset trait and having LOS and your opponent doesn't is not one of those.

I think that's how the covered it in a demo. Sounds good anyway

I would play trees on a area terrain cutout count as light terrain for the entire area, don't block LOS, difficult for movement and can be flown over but not landed in for skimmers. The tress are representive and can be removed as needed.

Large trees on their own base like the huge trunks on peoples Endor tables count as LOS blocking and impassable .

20 hours ago, NeonWolf said:

If you read the rules it deals with all of these situations, there is no need for house ruling anything. I've seen a lot of people, in a lot of games, try to "house rule" terrain rules because they either don't understand them or don't like them.

Ultimately, it's your gaming experience, do what you want, but if you ever plan to play in any type of Organized Play event then I highly recommend that you read the rules, play a game, read the rules again, play another game, lather-rinse-repeat. If you never plan on playing anything but Grand Army rules in your basement, then do whatever you want with house rules.

I have read the terrain rules and it look like FFG has attempted to provide answers to everything and made them WAY too complex.
what is the difference between a "blast hole" and a "crater"?

did we need FOUR types of terrain with charts detailing each of them? there are TWENTY listed pieces of terrain in the book.
I am worried this is going to cause too much confusion with players new to TTG's.

26 minutes ago, Hidatom said:

I have read the terrain rules and it look like FFG has attempted to provide answers to everything and made them WAY too complex.
what is the difference between a "blast hole" and a "crater"?

did we need FOUR types of terrain with charts detailing each of them? there are TWENTY listed pieces of terrain in the book.
I am worried this is going to cause too much confusion with players new to TTG's.

That may seem like an excessive amount of charts but keep in mind that FFG is intending Legion to be a competitive game, so those charts help to eliminate any ambiguity during tournament play.

Like I said, you are welcome to house rule whatever you want, just keep in mind that if you decide to go to a tournament then you will have to know how the 20 different types of terrain affect your units.

I personally don't like to play in tournaments as I like more story-driven games, but I will most likely end up being the TO for Legion events at my FLGS so I'll be wanting to know how the terrain works in case I need to make a ruling. From that viewpoint, I like that they took the time to think through each terrain type and how it affects each unit type. Until I get my hands on some models and start playing some games I can't tell how these rules will actually play out, but from my experience with games and terrain rules, these look pretty good to me.

2 hours ago, Hidatom said:

I have read the terrain rules and it look like FFG has attempted to provide answers to everything and made them WAY too complex.
what is the difference between a "blast hole" and a "crater"?

did we need FOUR types of terrain with charts detailing each of them? there are TWENTY listed pieces of terrain in the book.
I am worried this is going to cause too much confusion with players new to TTG's.

Disagree

1 hour ago, NeonWolf said:

That may seem like an excessive amount of charts but keep in mind that FFG is intending Legion to be a competitive game, so those charts help to eliminate any ambiguity during tournament play.

Like I said, you are welcome to house rule whatever you want, just keep in mind that if you decide to go to a tournament then you will have to know how the 20 different types of terrain affect your units.

I personally don't like to play in tournaments as I like more story-driven games, but I will most likely end up being the TO for Legion events at my FLGS so I'll be wanting to know how the terrain works in case I need to make a ruling. From that viewpoint, I like that they took the time to think through each terrain type and how it affects each unit type. Until I get my hands on some models and start playing some games I can't tell how these rules will actually play out, but from my experience with games and terrain rules, these look pretty good to me.

Agree

Tirion can you tell me the difference between a blast hole and a crater in SW: Legion? What size are they how tall are they, etc.

1 minute ago, Hidatom said:

Tirion can you tell me the difference between a blast hole and a crater in SW: Legion? What size are they how tall are they, etc.

That's up to you to determine. It says so in the rules.

Ultimately, players should decide for themselves what they wish their battlefield to represent, adapting these rules as appropriate for their available terrain.

so...I play at Game store A where a blast hole is 4" wide and represented by one of GW's blast craters...I go play in a tournament in store B and that same terrain piece is now a crater.

that shouldn't cause any issues...

12 minutes ago, Hidatom said:

so...I play at Game store A where a blast hole is 4" wide and represented by one of GW's blast craters...I go play in a tournament in store B and that same terrain piece is now a crater.

that shouldn't cause any issues...

No it won't because the TO has the final say. And both players should agree on the terrain rules BEFORE the game starts. Did you even read the rules?

7 minutes ago, Hidatom said:

so...I play at Game store A where a blast hole is 4" wide and represented by one of GW's blast craters...I go play in a tournament in store B and that same terrain piece is now a crater.

that shouldn't cause any issues...

Well, as long as you know exactly how the "blast hole" affects the models/units in your army and your opponents, then no, it shouldn't cause any issues. If you are used to playing with 2" blast holes at home and then go to another venue and they have a 4" blast hole...it's still a blast hole.

11 minutes ago, Hidatom said:

so...I play at Game store A where a blast hole is 4" wide and represented by one of GW's blast craters...I go play in a tournament in store B and that same terrain piece is now a crater.

that shouldn't cause any issues...

If you know what the terrain represents at the start of the game, then I don't see a problem!

So what if store A determines different to store B. Suck it up and play the game!

Crater

a large, bowl-shaped cavity in the ground or on the surface of a planet or the moon, typically one caused by an explosion or the impact of a meteorite or other celestial body.

Blasthole

the hole into which a blasting charge is inserted.

1 minute ago, UnitOmega said:

Crater

a large, bowl-shaped cavity in the ground or on the surface of a planet or the moon, typically one caused by an explosion or the impact of a meteorite or other celestial body.

Blasthole

the hole into which a blasting charge is inserted.

Here's your crater.

I'd go with the rules and True Line of Sight for shooting into or out of trees/woods with the appropriate modifiers applied. I would also play it that models outside of the trees, but shooting thru them at one another, would either a) not be able to draw a line of sight regardless of the actual obstruction (in an area terrain, trees are more than just the actual trees and have other brush/debris around them - assuming not a single tree - sort of way) or b) up the cover modifier by one. Or you could always just go with the RAW and make it TLoS all the time.