Hi. I'm revisiting Ruins of Belegost (I obviously hate my heroes), and have hit the following situation in a "2-player" (2 deck) game:

Lurker of the Depths ("...cannot be engaged...while in the staging area, it is considered to be engaged with each player") attackes first player in combat phase. It gets a shadow effect from Orc of Ered Luin ("After this attack, attacking enemy engages the next player, then makes an immediate attack").

If Lurker cannot be engaged, can it engage? Do I leave Lurker in the staging area, but give it an extra attack against player 2? Do I move Lurker from staging to player 2's area? Do I ignore the shadow, as engagement is normally mutual (so I'd assume engagement bars are too)?

1) While it is in the staging area it is considered engaged, so it cannot engage with anyone.
2) Yes.
3) No.
4) Most Shadow cards' effects only last until the resolution of the attack so you'd ignore the effects of prior ones (unless a prior Shadow card had an effect with a longer duration than "this attack")

Hmm. So if it can't engage, the shadow effect says "engage the next player, then make an attack" I should apply the attack, even though the engagement hasn't been triggered. I thought generally a then clause was only applied if the first part was applicable...hence my doubts.

15 minutes ago, Boromore said:

Hmm. So if it can't engage, the shadow effect says "engage the next player, then make an attack" I should apply the attack, even though the engagement hasn't been triggered. I thought generally a then clause was only applied if the first part was applicable...hence my doubts.

I should really have read the question more thoroughly. I suspect the answer to your particular scenario is "make an attack regardless of engagement" but now I want to hear from someone else about it.

I'd say Lurker in the Depts doesn't get to do an extra attack.

The preceding effect (on the shadow clause of Orc of Ered Luin ) is engaging the nex player. That cannot happen due to being already engaged with all players due to the Lurker text.

So if the preceding effect doesn't happen (engaging next player) the word "then" cannot be taken into account due to rule 1.15.

I also belive the example of ruling 1.46 also sheads some light in this case despite not being directly applied to the case.

CJMatos

My opinion is based on these 2 FAQ entries:

(1.15) The word “then” If a card effect uses the word “then,” then the preceding effect must resolve successfully for the subsequent dependent effect to resolve.

(1.46) “Next” player If there is only one player in the game, there is no next player. Card effects that target the “next” player will not trigger if there is only one player in the game.

For example: The shadow effect of Pathless Country (TBR 72) reads: “Shadow: After this attack, the attacking enemy engages the next player then makes an immediate attack.” If there is only one player in the game, there is no next player to engage. The word “then” indicates that the immediate attack is conditional on the attacking enemy engaging the next player, so the enemy will not make an immediate attack

To add to my previous reply, look at:

(1.50) “Considered to be engaged” vs actual engagement

An enemy that does not leave the staging area but is considered to be engaged with a player does not actually engage that player, nor does that player engage it. In order for a player to engage an enemy, the enemy card must physically enter his play area.

I think it makes more sense for the Lurker to not make an additional attack. But let’s remember LotR LCG rule number one: if it’s harder for the players, it’s the right way to play.

In this case, I think the FAQ entries @CJMatos quoted make it pretty clear: there's no next player, so none of the shadow effect can take place.

Hi - thanks all for the responses. Just to clarify on the "next player" part - I was playing 2-handed, so there would be a virtual "next player" (my other hand). But the difference between "considered to be engaged" v. actually engaged seems to be the key.

I finally plucked up courage and asked my first rules question. if anyone is interested, here's the response:

"The Lurker cannot leave the staging area, which means you cannot fulfill the first part of the shadow card “engages the next.” That means the second part of the shadow effect cannot trigger because it is prefaced with the word “then” - “then makes an immediate attack.” When we use the word “then” it means that whatever follows it will not resolve unless everything that preceded it was fully resolved. So, in the situation you describe the shadow effect will fizzle because the Lurker cannot leave the staging area.
Hope you’re enjoying The Ruins of Belegost!
Cheers, Caleb"

So a lucky break!

On 20/03/2018 at 8:46 AM, Boromore said:

I finally plucked up courage and asked my first rules question. if anyone is interested, here's the response:

"The Lurker cannot leave the staging area, which means you cannot fulfill the first part of the shadow card “engages the next.” That means the second part of the shadow effect cannot trigger because it is prefaced with the word “then” - “then makes an immediate attack.” When we use the word “then” it means that whatever follows it will not resolve unless everything that preceded it was fully resolved. So, in the situation you describe the shadow effect will fizzle because the Lurker cannot leave the staging area.
Hope you’re enjoying The Ruins of Belegost!
Cheers, Caleb"

So a lucky break!

So i got it right... YAY