Best Fix: Make Wookie Gunships Epic only.

A reverse LWF fixes a lot of problems, but unfortunately with passive mitigation the best solution is probably a nerfed version of Wampa's ability where instead of dealing a facedown damage card you just assign them a damage. Having both of those in the game would be even better so they have options and can adapt to the meta. Also, as "fickle" suggested, the Outmaneuver EPT becoming a base rule in the game is a great idea.

9 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

Eh, iffy.

LWF has an inherit problem (except with the Punisher and soon Reaper) where it trades any benefit you got from obstruction/R3 for basically getting it at all ranges (Strikers with LWF have no real need to be obstructed or R3, it almost never yields a 4th die). This isnt terribly noticable though since secondary weapons at R3 still generate the LWF die, basically giving you R3 benefits back.

"Light Weight Blasters" would be super noticable that the R1 doughnut is now actually bad for you. Unless its a Protectorate (especially Fenn) or a ship with SD/Cloak/burns an evade token, you wont ever get a 4th red die out of it. Most 2die ships are either just blockers or theyre using ordnance anyway so this would be kinda counterproductive on say a Tie Fighter, who's almost always R1 so he can block. Any ship with this becomes a R2 preferred ship, and i cant think of any 2die non-ordnance users that would like that idea.

At 1pt, you arent really losing anything other than a mod slot to take it. I imagine it would win a few games but majority of the time i suspect it would be moot.

Also the timing would be weird. That timing window disallows any modifications on either side since its after both players would mod the dice.

edit: Plus the majority of problem ships are going to flatout ignore this effect since they have crap agility anyway and are just fat. Wookieship for example would have to be obstructed or R3 to give you that third die AND have Reinforce on him, any other scenario he still kills your offense with reinforce.

are you arguing that turning every 2 attack ship into the inquisitor light is bad because it doesnt buff blockers? i think this is meant as a swarm fix.

no one says the inquisitor is bad because his ability doesnt buff range 1, hes just better at range 3. the only problem i see is it cant be a mod, has to be title. light scyks cant take mods, a-wings cant give up autothrusters, and way too many pilots are tied to vectored thrusters or whatnot.

6 hours ago, Phelan Boots said:

“ Modification

When attacking, cancel two [hit] results to cause the defender to suffer one damage.

You may only equip this upgrade if your primary weapon value is 2 or lower. You may equip an additional Modification Upgrade.

1(or 2) point(s) ”

You still have to roll decently, and modifying dice still helps. Additionally it would work with secondary weapons, because I want Snap Shot A-wings to be a thing.

Change that to hit or crit and maybe limit it to not being able to mod the shot and I really like this one. It’d be all luck but basically gives you a shot to turn 2 dice attackers into unreliable vaders. Kinda cool idea.

Could this be as simple as a mod/title that gives the choice of +1 red -1 green till end of turn?

Max 2 att to equip.

Max 3 att net gain.

This helps hwk’s too to not be 1 trick ponies. 3/0 ain’t bad considering the garbage 1/2 is.

Maybe throw in a weapons disabled token too so it’s only ever every other turn. Thoughts if that’s broken?

11 hours ago, Kieransi said:

Actually, the biggest problem I see with this is that, like 90% of "fix" cards, it fills a mod slot. So it precludes the use of so many other essential cards. Perhaps it might be better to make it a title that's just not ship restricted (also, that way ARCs and TIE/SF's can't cheat it to get four dice).

Maybe make something like this?

Read it wrong, nothing to see here carry on.

I think any fix should attempt to improve the attack 'efficiency' of all two dice attack ships. Tie Fighters, A-Wings, Sycks, and Z's.
Seems like the consensus is that it should be a Title, not a modification.

A reverse LWF (Basically the Inquisitors ability for all two dice ships) is decent option, but would have to be restricted to small ships only or in arc only.

Dealing automatic damage (by having to roll two hits or cancelling results) is also a good option.

Combining the attack dice of multiple ships or debuffing when multiple ships have the enemy in arc are also good options.

Hard to tell which is the best option.

10 minutes ago, AngryAlbatross said:

I think any fix should attempt to improve the attack 'efficiency' of all two dice attack ships. Tie Fighters, A-Wings, Sycks, and Z's.
Seems like the consensus is that it should be a Title, not a modification.

A reverse LWF (Basically the Inquisitors ability for all two dice ships) is decent option, but would have to be restricted to small ships only or in arc only.

Dealing automatic damage (by having to roll two hits or cancelling results) is also a good option.

Combining the attack dice of multiple ships or debuffing when multiple ships have the enemy in arc are also good options.

Hard to tell which is the best option.

All the above depending on the ship so theres some diversity between them.

Give TIE Fighters a title for swarming, multiple ships have the target in arc it gets debuffed (-1agi?) when one of them attacks it. I remember someone suggesting this before along the lines of a condition card title "Theres too many of them!"

Give the Awings the auto damage if they score atleast 2 hits/crits. Awings generally didnt swarm things, or atleast to the same degree TIEs did, but they were pretty dang accurate shots.

Give Z's the cancel a crit to make the defender suffer a damage because....reasons?

F Jm5k's and everything else generally uses secondary weapons anyway (Scyks w/o a cannon? wat?)

Also it all must be primary only. Z's and A's have access to a missile, so something shifty could happen otherwise.

59 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

All the above depending on the ship so theres some diversity between them.

Give TIE Fighters a title for swarming, multiple ships have the target in arc it gets debuffed (-1agi?) when one of them attacks it. I remember someone suggesting this before along the lines of a condition card title "Theres too many of them!"

Give the Awings the auto damage if they score atleast 2 hits/crits. Awings generally didnt swarm things, or atleast to the same degree TIEs did, but they were pretty dang accurate shots.

Give Z's the cancel a crit to make the defender suffer a damage because....reasons?

F Jm5k's and everything else generally uses secondary weapons anyway (Scyks w/o a cannon? wat?)

Also it all must be primary only. Z's and A's have access to a missile, so something shifty could happen otherwise.

I do like spreading the flavor around in theory, but making a single upgrade card would allow for future proofing unreleased 2 attack power ships.

Dont forget, there’s a lot of other underutilized 2 attack ships. Many of them only have one ace pilot that is worthwhile for whatever reason. Also a lot of them have secondary weapons that act as their main source of damage, or a title that adds some additional firepower.

Rebel Ships:

A-Wing

Z-95

TIE Fighter

Sheathipede

Y-Wing

K-Wing

B/SF-17

YT-2400

HWK-290

ARC-170

Imperial Ships:

TIE Fighter

TIE F/O

TIE SF

TIE Bomber

TIE Advanced

TAP

TIE Aggressor

TIE Punisher

Gunboat

Scum ships:

Scyk

Z-95

Quadjumper

Jumpmaster

Y-Wing

HWK-290

Looking at that list, maybe targeted fixes for specific “Swarmy” ships is a better option. That is a lot of design space to try to word a universal fix, without breaking something else.

The Imperials have the most ships that I would consider need a bump, if only slightly. An imperial fix card could be all encompassing if it read,

“Modification

TIE only

(New Mechanic)

You cannot perform attacks outside your primary firing arc. You may only equip this upgrade if you a primary attack of 2 or less.”

TIE shuttles, and generic TAPs and TIE Advanced could all use a little buff as well. It precludes Aggressor turret shenanigans, and the TIE S/F can’t abuse it out of both arcs. As a modification, makes the TIE Shuttle choose between damage and survivability, unfortunately it also applies to the TAP with autothrusters. I would like to see TAPs and TIE Advanced that aren’t named Vader and Inquisitor being used more often.

The other factions should probably have a “fix” targeted specifically at the A-Wing and Z-95. The HWK is a whole other beast, as buffing it’s primary attack is not going to make it competitive. Rebels make out like bandits, having a ship that can use every upgrade. Sell them all in a big box with a TIE Fighter, Z-95, and A-Wing all facing each other.

Right, and almost every single one of those 2die ships either DONT need help (fu jm5k // sheathipede), use secondary weapons 99% of the time (scyk, y/k, hwk, gunboat, bomber, punisher, yt2400), or arent an offensive ship to begin with (quad/sheath)

ARC-170 and TIE SF are prime candidates for abusing a blanket 2die attack value buff. Theyre 2die ships that arent 2die ships to get the bonus "weaker" arc. The LightWeightBlasters would give the SF a 3die splitshot depending on the situation and give both a 3die rear shot more often.

B/SF-17 is an enigma. Personally i think they flopped hardcore on this one, we already have a mobile arc mechanic so why didnt it get that instead of making a ship that clearly has a TON of guns a 2die PWT? Aside from that i dunno what would be good for this thing.

The only 2die ships that are meant to be offensive that actually could use a boost is the Awing, Z95, and TIE Fighter/Adv/FO/maybe the TAP too. And the Awing/Z95/lump of TIEs all behave differently, so giving them all the same blanket fix would be weird. Specific fixes would be far better. The other "2die ships" that need help need help in other areas because they'd either never use their primary weapon anyway or (worse yet) accidentally spawn a monster because the "fix" didnt specify primary weapon for its benefit, only on if you can equip it.

Individual fixes is just far, far safer.

2-dice fix: get to range one.

j/k

(sorta)

Be careful when you fix 2 attack dice ships, not to render more expensive 3 attack dice ships obsolete.

If the 12 points Z-95 all of sudden start dealing 3-ish damage, why would anyone use a 21 points X-wing? A 3-ish damage A-wing is more survivable and agile than a clumsy B-wing. Why would I ever bring a b-wing then?

This applies even if these fixed 2 attack dice ships end dealing not 3 damage, but just any amount of damage more consistently than 3 attack dice ships do.

Quote

If the 12 points Z-95 all of sudden start dealing 3-ish damage, why would anyone use a 21 points X-wing? A 3-ish damage A-wing is more survivable and agile than a clumsy B-wing. Why would I ever bring a b-wing then?

People don't right now anyway.

Fighting power creep with more power creep just perpetuates the cycle of Fix Leapfrog the game is stuck in. We need a set of card restrictions to bring the top tier down, not more biannual ace packs to bring small chunks of the bottom up.

34 minutes ago, Firespray-32 said:

People don't right now anyway.

Fighting power creep with more power creep just perpetuates the cycle of Fix Leapfrog the game is stuck in. We need a set of card restrictions to bring the top tier down, not more biannual ace packs to bring small chunks of the bottom up.

Yes!
But the problem is that the game is power-creeped by design. No one would buy a new ship if it wasn't better than something already available.
Also, a pack that upgrades old ships to be closer to top tier sells probably better than one that downgrades top tier ships to mediocrity.

I don't care too much about FFG's bottom line, but I know enough of it to realize that this will not happen.

The Errata can be seen as a mild attempt to soften the impact of the most broken things; we have seen it with the Jumpmaster.
But they will not perform a blanket downgrade to the last 6 waves so that they end at the same level as the first 7 ones. It would be probably healthier for the long term, but they will just not do it.

Quote

But the problem is that the game is power-creeped by design. No one would buy a new ship if it wasn't better than something already available.

If that were the case the TIE punisher wouldn't have sold. The brand sells the ships.

3 hours ago, Firespray-32 said:

If that were the case the TIE punisher wouldn't have sold. The brand sells the ships.

I bought two Punishers because I wanted TIE Engines MkII, some extra munitions, and a cluster mine. Haven’t taken the TIE Roid-Rage-Bomber out of my box since then.

On 3/1/2018 at 4:36 AM, Azrapse said:

Yes!
But the problem is that the game is power-creeped by design. No one would buy a new ship if it wasn't better than something already available.

Yeah, this is a load of crap. I have a decent sized collection of around 20 ships of each faction, and I have NEVER bought a ship because "something better was available." In fact, I do the opposite. I purposely AVOID the overpowered ships like the Jumpmaster.

I buy ships based on theme, nostalgia, function, or enjoyable design. Gotta open your mind, man. Not everyone thinks like you, and the fact that ships like Punisher sell prove that point. And yes... I also bought a Punisher.

41 minutes ago, f0rbiddenc00kie said:

Yeah, this is a load of crap. I have a decent sized collection of around 20 ships of each faction, and I have NEVER bought a ship because "something better was available." In fact, I do the opposite. I purposely AVOID the overpowered ships like the Jumpmaster.

I buy ships based on theme, nostalgia, function, or enjoyable design. Gotta open your mind, man. Not everyone thinks like you, and the fact that ships like Punisher sell prove that point. And yes... I also bought a Punisher.

Proud owner of two Quadjumpers and eight Z-95s. And I wanted to run an eight ships swarm before the Light Scyk fix happened and I found they were fun and supporty with tracer missiles and guidance chips. And didn't some guy just take the rebel version of that list to the top eight somewhere. Oh and Quadjumpers, just such so much but also so much fun. I really want another one

If you'd wanna fix 2 attack ships give them Wampa's ability if they roll 2 or fewer dice.

3 hours ago, f0rbiddenc00kie said:

I buy ships based on theme, nostalgia, function, or enjoyable design. Gotta open your mind, man. Not everyone thinks like you, and the fact that ships like Punisher sell prove that point. And yes... I also bought a Punisher.

I don't think like that. I buy one of every ship at least, and then several of the ones I like regardless of OPnesss (4 gunboats).

But we aren't the norm.

I've thought of the LWF for attack dice before (while pondering what would be good to put in a Imperial V-Wing pack besides a Tarkin pilot card), while the idea is pretty sound it does have problems with modifications and the like, as people note. Is not gonna be as good as actual LWF, though I believe the wording either explicitly takes care of, or could take care of problems like "soft" 3 ATK ships like the ARC or /SF. Big ships with turrets don't necessarily need the help.

But, I've been studying Armada a lot lately (it's a game I've been trying to understand for a while now, it seems a lot more indepth in many areas than X-Wing, but you can see a lot of improvements in the mechanics. Imagine how many design issues we could wiggle around if say, primary attack dice and ordinance dice had different probabilities?) and there are quite a few upgrades which allow alternate use of crit symbols, or spending dice (sometimes with specific results) to get an effect. What if X-Wing used something similar, now that spending dice is in the parlance? Say you roll a crit (or maybe mod to a crit, depending on timing). What if you could spend that right away to inflict one damage before the defender's dice cancel you? Would that happen enough to be worth it? What if you could squish 2 hits into a damage, or even a facedown? Kind of like turning many 2 ATK ships into a junior TLT but you don't have to "hit".

Either way, a good balance if you want to cut out secondary weapon ships, forbid it from anything with the secondary weapon icons, or maybe just ordinance. You want to improve your attack as a TIE Bomber, just buy UG.

To be honest, the best fix would to have never gone above three in the first place.

But FFG just frakking had to. THEY JUST HAD TO.

TBH, I'm not sure why the Ghost has 4, besides just being bigger and beefier, but given FFG's usual method of X-1 = ATK for the TIE Phantom, or how the Upsilon is supposed to have suped up "heavy laser cannons" built in, with our current stat system there's not a good way to model "But also this has even more guns than normal" besides the extra die that doesn't involve more card text. And people seem more accepting of a slightly different red number and rolling another die than anything that requires them to read more.

FFG does seem to grasp the balance implications though, since the H-6 is also not a 4+ ATK ship, even though it has 6 forward laser cannons.